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Offline Riverhead

Expanding the Role of Delegates
« on: October 09, 2014, 03:24:15 PM »

During Dan's meet-n-greet lunch we got into a discussion about the role delegates will play. At the time I was arguing that delegates don't know each other and don't want to know each other. However, I have since been pondering that position and think it is incorrect. Currently with the small market cap and small volumes a delegate's role is mainly a light IT position with some contributions like SVK's block/delegate sites, evangelism, etc.

However as traffic increases and 3i's role in the "running" of the BitSharesX business fades out someone, or a collection of someones, will need to make management decisions. I know theFu[zz].. has setup some Delegate Mumble sessions and maybe this has already been discussed.

What are the thoughts of other delegates? Do you think we should work to form a more cohesive management structure or stay separate?

My thinking is that there are delegates better suited to an IT role, others to marketing, and others to working out ways to make deals with external parties (for example payment processors). Having delegates geographically diverse would be a huge benefit here.

What say you, Delegates?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 03:25:55 PM by Riverhead »

Offline emski

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Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2014, 03:33:25 PM »
All decisions should be taken care of by voting. Delegates support the network by signing blocks. If you need anything else (like marketing, dilution, exchange deals) we should have votable "business  proposals". This was extensively discussed in another thread https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9452.0.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2014, 03:33:36 PM »
During Dan's meet-n-greet lunch we got into a discussion about the role
delegates will play. At the time I was arguing that delegates don't know each
other and don't want to know each other. However, I have since been pondering
that position and think it is incorrect.
I'd LOVE to get in touch with you guys .. and don't see any issues with going
out for a beer or so .. as long as the duties for delegates are untouched ..
namely collecting valid transactions and signing blocks.

Quote
Currently with the small market cap and small volumes a delegate's role
is mainly a light IT position with some contributions like SVK's block/delegate
sites, evangelism, etc.
fully agree here .. I see my self in the support/tech and some evangelism regime.

Quote
However as traffic increases and 3i's role in the "running" of the BitSharesX
business fades out someone, or a collection of someones, will need to make
management decisions.
At least all delegates need to figure out how to 'tune' the burnrate, don't we?

Quote
What are the thoughts of other delegates? Do you think we should work to form a
more cohesive management structure or stay separate?
Puh, .. very difficult questions. Most important issues is that delegates
should be run on different machines administered by different people located
around the world. So I see no issue in having a management structure that gives
an "advice". As long as it is publicly available and NOTHING happens behind the
scene I would be o.k. with joining. In the end, delegates need to figure out
what is good for the network and might need to teach stakeholders (as already
taken place in several threads here)

Quote
My thinking is that there are delegates better suited to an IT role, others to
marketing, and others to working out ways to make deals with external parties
(for example payment processors).
... and they can coexist. 101 spots.

My thinking was that we might need to form groups of people that stand behind
ONE delegate and supports several works (from the technical as well as
political and management regimes).
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2014, 03:35:12 PM »
All decisions should be taken care of by voting. Delegates support the network by signing blocks. If you need anything else (like marketing, dilution, exchange deals) we should have votable "business  proposals". This was extensively discussed in another thread https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9452.0.

I agree for proposals that concern the blockchain and its integrity .. but votes are unnecessary for decisions on what marketing/political/tech activities a delegates income might be used for ..
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Offline Riverhead

Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2014, 03:40:28 PM »
Thank you for the link, emski. I will read through it (hard to keep up on all the traffic here :) ).

I agree 100% that decisions regarding how the business is run would need to be put to a vote. However, someone has to organize the proposals, manage the voting (if not built into the client), and hire/manage/pay developers to implement changes and fixes. Once Dan and crew are on to other things someone needs to man the tiller.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 03:44:13 PM by Riverhead »

Offline Riverhead

Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2014, 03:42:49 PM »
During Dan's meet-n-greet lunch we got into a discussion about the role
delegates will play. At the time I was arguing that delegates don't know each
other and don't want to know each other. However, I have since been pondering
that position and think it is incorrect.
I'd LOVE to get in touch with you guys .. and don't see any issues with going
out for a beer or so .. as long as the duties for delegates are untouched ..
namely collecting valid transactions and signing blocks.



Me too :). However what I meant was there may be reasons, for security, that all delegates should not know all the other delegates. Not that I was being anti-social.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2014, 03:43:24 PM »
I agree 100% that decisions regarding how the business is run would need to be put to a vote. However, someone has to organize the proposals, manage the voting (if not built into the client), and higher/manage/pay developers to implement changes and fixes. Once Dan and crew are on to other things someone needs to man the tiller.

Ahh .. I see .. we are talking about the BitShares-X business as a whole ..
Are you suggesting something like the Bitcoin Foundation? One of cobs latest posts on the BitShares MUSIC Foundation implied that they actually plan to let the foundation 'fade' out over time.

I will need to think about all this a little ..
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2014, 03:45:11 PM »
Me too :). However what I meant was there may be reasons, for security, that all delegates should not know all the other delegates. Not that I was being anti-social.
BM suggested that there might be (in future) a set of delegates that operate anonymously .. for security reasons against regulations and similar things ..
Not sure about the ratio he posted but it was like 10-20% (anon) or so ...
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Offline Riverhead

Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2014, 03:45:47 PM »
I agree 100% that decisions regarding how the business is run would need to be put to a vote. However, someone has to organize the proposals, manage the voting (if not built into the client), and higher/manage/pay developers to implement changes and fixes. Once Dan and crew are on to other things someone needs to man the tiller.

Ahh .. I see .. we are talking about the BitShares-X business as a whole ..
Are you suggesting something like the Bitcoin Foundation? One of cobs latest posts on the BitShares MUSIC Foundation implied that they actually plan to let the foundation 'fade' out over time.

I will need to think about all this a little ..


Sort of like a foundation however it would consist of the delegates because they are elected by the shareholders. I understand Cob's point about that being centralized and I agree however elected delegates are a different story.

Offline Riverhead

Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2014, 03:49:19 PM »
Me too :) . However what I meant was there may be reasons, for security, that all delegates should not know all the other delegates. Not that I was being anti-social.
BM suggested that there might be (in future) a set of delegates that operate anonymously .. for security reasons against regulations and similar things ..
Not sure about the ratio he posted but it was like 10-20% (anon) or so ...


Yes, that would make sense. I need to read the thread emski posted. We may be rehashing all the same stuff again.

Offline Riverhead

Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2014, 04:59:37 PM »
Wow! That is a heavy thread. I'm almost half way through it but will have to read it a couple more times. And yes, it does make this thread somewhat superfluous.

Offline Pheonike

Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2014, 05:34:15 PM »

Since there will be many delegates across many different DACS, there needs be a basic core list of guidelines and communication protocols can be adhered too.

-There needs to a reference hardware/OS spec for non-cloud and VPS servers.
-A cost reference for running a delegate server.
-There should a be designated site/irc or platform that delegates can access for trusted communications.


 

Offline amencon

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Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2014, 05:41:48 PM »
I have no problem communicating with other delegates (even going for a beer if the situation permits it as xeroc stated), I also think some level of organization between delegates is OK as long as there isn't collusion among them.

Unfortunately I think the biggest problem has nothing to do with delegates and their role but getting the stakeholders interested in directing the management of BTSX.

I've created multiple threads requesting ideas for what people would like to see from their delegates with 0 responses.  We have multiple delegates voted in that don't even update price feeds at all.  There doesn't seem to be much interest from people in giving direction to delegates.

The point of a delegate system is to put the power in the hands of the systems stakeholders.  Now it appears the real trick is getting the stakeholders to actually give a shit.

What would be the stated goal or benefit of creating a "cohesive management structure" among delegates?  Not saying it's a bad idea but I'm coming up blank as far as it's potential benefit to BitsharesX unless it's a structure that can gain the involvement of the systems' users.

Offline Thom

Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2014, 06:08:41 PM »

Since there will be many delegates across many different DACS, there needs be a basic core list of guidelines and communication protocols can be adhered too.

-There needs to a reference hardware/OS spec for non-cloud and VPS servers.
-A cost reference for running a delegate server.
-There should a be designated site/irc or platform that delegates can access for trusted communications.

Wouldn't secure comm be built into the BTSX client at some point, or perhaps kethotee? Seems like secure comm was one of the foundational pillars in I3's planned features. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.
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Offline roadscape

Re: Expanding the Role of Delegates
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2014, 06:11:15 PM »
My thinking was that we might need to form groups of people that stand behind
ONE delegate and supports several works (from the technical as well as
political and management regimes).

If delegates can be said to serve a political role, I'd prefer they have beers with the users they run for :)
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