I followed and invested in Scharmbeck which is now in testing. It provides WDC/Fiat. They raised money by giving out shares in the company.

If AGS fund is used for this initiative, we should get shares in the company.

Which is what we intend to do. 20% of the profits (same as with a new DAC where 20% are given to PTS/AGS owners) will be put in a DAC Development Fund. The fund will be controlled by 1 Invictus member and 1 trusted community member.

What are your thoughts on having this Platform interface as a gateway with Ripple?

It is not our intention to use Ripple. But we can maybe work on implementing it as an additional source of funding.

Ripple as of now is still difficult to use and they have their own problem of educating/adopting, therefor it is smarter to use something that everyone has (Fiat) and give them the chance to invest. Using Ripple would require us to first convince them of the functionality/usage of Ripple and then further explain DAC's. Instead, if we focus our resources on just one concept we will achieve a greater and faster output.

Quote from: Pocket Sand on January 11, 2014, 06:40:39 pm

Compliance is still not defined by all state money transmitter laws and the companies know they have to be regulated and they go to every full measure they can to make sure they are safe and compliant.  Coinbase started with an AML policy and careful compliance to Fincen/MSB they did not start out allowing wire transfers without any details and blatant money laundering. I don't know how you got this idea that these companies just started out with these completely idealistic ideals that they were above all regulation, they instead got every compliance they were advised to and have kept away from ones that aren't "legally required" yet. The businesses are regulated and they are compliant with current laws. Thank you for your argument.

Any smart company or individual would act to avert legal harm and would not claim to be above a law. You are correct in that you do not know my familiarity with these companies. There was delight in the furthering of technologies that are beyond regulation. That is not to say that the companies ever acted to willfully violate any law. The draw to decentralized autonomous corporations is that they are decentralized autonomous corporations that can avoid oppressive regulations as necessary. I3 began with some lofty ideals too.

I3 is a company that is creating both technologies and companies. Traditional companies (like I3 itself) are easily forced to comply. The technologies can be forced to comply to the extent that they are managed by an entity that can be controlled. I3 sold an ideal that is disruptive to the notion of how companies may be formed and regulated, but is implementing what is practical within the rules it must comply with. Rules get modified as necessary to change what disruption to established interests is practical. I3 is not beyond the law but can act where laws do not yet restrict.

Everyone would agree that it is beneficial to have businesses that can act in compliance with laws. The question here is if the creator of the technology should be the one financing compliance for users of the technology. I doubt it is possible to spend enough to accomplish that without also sacrificing ideals.

We are not sacrificing the ideals of Privacy and Decentralization of the entire ecosystem, for the advantages of being compliant to the law and legally operating.

Think of us like this: We are currently building an entry to a cave. Our entry is easily accessible, visible and can be used by everyone. If our entry collapses and the passage is completely blocked the cave will still be accessible through other smaller but harder to access entries.
If this project will be shut down by the government, for whatever reason, the DAC's and the ideology behind them will still live on. If Coinbase is shut down, Bitcoin will move on.

Legal services are definitely not essential for this newly created space - but they are crucial add-ons to the crypto world that allow for a much faster adoption rate. They speed-up the process and give non-techies the chance to join a new and revolutionary project without the necessary requirements. Basically, they allow for ideas to spread and adopted at a much faster pace and they do a fair amount of educating of the userbase.


The ideal solution would obviously be an anonymous, decentralized trading platform that gives everyone the chance to invest in new DAC's. We are not quite there yet and we need to work on a centralized solution that will help us accomplish that goal in the future. A decentralized and anonymous trading platform can and will be built on top of the proposed trading platform and we will definitely work on that.

Quote from: domsch on January 11, 2014, 06:04:20 pm

If we proceed and simply say "Fuck you USA" a la MtGox and don't comply with regulations we will soon see our accounts seized and operations halted. That is why I am for conducting this all within legal borders and try to acquire the licenses as soon as possible.
Bitstamp right now simply works with international wire transfers to their accounts in the UK. (They are actually registered in the UK, but I think they operate from Slovenia). We intend to take a similar approach but are focusing on getting US Banking set-up and acquire the licenses as soon as possible. A huge problem could arise in which the US requests all trading platforms to be incorporated in the US, work with a US bank and get the required licenses. If we work on getting all this done prior such a hypothetical, but very likely, regulation, we will be ahead and trading would continue without any difficulties.

And I need to emphasize this again: Initially we will be able to operate WITHOUT these licenses

The only problem with your plan is Mt.Gox spends a huge amount of money on lawyers and compliance professionals.  You are assuming they're just bad actors, but that's not true.  The problem is in an environment lacking solid rules, the best you can do with your compliance effort is to make a bet at what you think it'll be.  That's crazy. 

You can try this however you'd like, I'm just saying please consult with a US attorney who knows the Bitcoin startup space before you commit to a business model that requires licenses in the US.

That is also how Coinbase did it and still does it. They entered a grey area and are doing fine as of now, but they are trying to get everything sorted by getting their state MTB licenses. We will take a similar approach.

Currently we are in talks with 3 lawyers from the US, Hong Kong and Germany. I'm still trying to work on that contingency plan mentioned on the first page of the thread and on a proper incorporation strategy that allows us to target the most prominent countries first while expanding to other countries. And we have also contacted several other attorneys from Singapore, UK and Australia to plan ahead and know what will be required.

It should be interesting to hire our own General Counsel. Similar to known start-ups that have challenged laws: Airbnb(local hotel zoning laws), Uber (taxi licensing requirements), and Pinterest (posting copyrighted images). Obviously that is another long-term goal, but if this platform shows traction and we raise money from a VC I do think that there is a possibility on not only hoping for a better output on a hearing, but also actively fighting for it.

Reference: http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/04/why-startups-hire-their-own-lawyers/

It should not be entirely AGS funded, though.  Domsch's friends in VC, other investors, etc., should be used to fund a very high percentage of the project.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It will be funded partially by us and the AGS fund. The VC contacts will allow us to raise money 7-figures (if needed) and work on an international expansion. The AGS will help us to bootstrap this project and open up a Protoshares<->Fiat exchange, while simultaneously working on the legality and the required licenses.

I worked on a lot of issues along these lines when i began laying ground work for some of my ideas, and i was always told that it seemed as though the authorities would be making an exception, which they never like to do.

So, i have been working on a crafting the Articles of Decentralization, similar to Articles of Association which are used to define and govern how companies operate, If we have such a document then we have begun laying the foundation that Legalizes DACs.

If we have Bitshares on Board as well as 3 other DACs based in different parts of the world we can then support the "international" part of it. We will then set out to create frameworks similar to how authorities regulate normal companies, but ours will keep in mind the decentralization and privacy parts.

All this gives us a conversation point when we try to pitch our businesses to authorities and even when a bank does their KYC, we'll have structures recognizable for them to interact with. Some lucky guys in less restrictive countries will get ahead first and thier fame will help our cause in restrictive territories.

This project will lay the foundation of DAC's and their relations with legal entities. Not only will we do research and testing with this to help design the functionality and usage of DAC's, but we will also help get everything sorted about the legality, which is still a huge problem that needs to be solved.

I think since the operation is centralized the main concern will be if it doesn't toe the line precisely then it will be shut down. How can you make it extremely difficult to shut down despite being decentralized while also attracting the mainstream?

Sadly, I do not have a straight answer for a "Contingency Mechanism" as of now. This project will try it's best to comply with the law and stay up to date on any new laws/hearings to not cause any surprises that will lead to a shut down.

I'll discuss the details on a corporation umbrella with my lawyers when I meet him next week. As of now it is still not clear where to base the main-company but we'll find a proper solution to the problem.

After discussing the matter with Dan, we agreed that it would be the best to bring my proposal to the community and gain support for our mission.

I want to create the first international, legal and automatic DAC Trading Platform. Not only would it guarantee an easy entry to DAC’s through Fiat, it would also allow trading to be conducted with different DAC’s.





There are several things we will work on, but our primary focus will be to create an international and legal trading platform. That means we will work on acquiring all the required licenses (either through partnerships with other companies, or by buying the licenses). There are 3 major licenses we need to acquire in order to function as a legitimate exchange:

• MTB License (Money Transmitting Business. This is a license which we need to acquire in all 50 states)
• MSB License (Money Service Business. This is a federal license)
• PSP (Payment Service Provider. Registered in the EU)
• And other licenses to assure our legality in all the major countries

As mentioned, initially we will acquire these licenses through strategic partnerships with current license-holders. Directly applying to these licenses is out of question right now as we do not meet the current requirements (e.g. $7m in bonds, having a CCO, etc.). But we are definitely looking to get these licenses in our hand as soon as possible.


Secondly, we will work on a secure web wallet not only for Protoshares and Bitshares, but also for all the other future DAC’s that Invictus and other developers have planned. Since most of us are paranoid about hackers, we will combine some of the best techniques available right now to offer our users the best possible security for their money. This includes:

• 2FA (standard)
• Multi-Signature Wallet (Similar model to https://www.bitgo.com/p2sh_safe_address )
• Cold storage on machines that have never touched the internet and will be hosted by us (so no relying on third parties)

Optional

• You can set a daily limit on how much you usually spend. When you reach that threshold you are prompted to verify ownership of the account
• You can also set an estimated time around when you usually buy/sell. Let’s say you usually trade between 7AM/8AM in the morning. If someone makes a sell request on 12AM, further verification is required
• And obviously more

Thirdly, since we are an advocate of the adoption of DAC’s, we will not only help already established DAC’s with promotion, but we do also want to help them through funding. Therefore we will create an official “DAC Development Fund” in which we donate 20% of our profits. This money would be donated to ambitious Teams and Projects that have been voted and decided on by the community. To add transparency to this entire operation, I would like to get 1 Invictus member and 1 trusted Forum member on the board of the company. They will give additional insight of our operations to the community and act as an independent third-party that control the donation fund with us.

Lastly, (as a long term project of mine), I want to create a platform that functions as a place where ideas are exchanged, knowledge is shared and help is given. It would basically be a Start-up and DAC Owners Manual. Past founders talk about their experience, mistakes, failures and success they have had in the past and what exactly led to it all. Additionally groups will be created in which ideas are exchanged and potential future DAC’s are organized.


Tell us more!

Our focus is it to lower the entry-barrier and give everyone the chance to invest and participate in jaw-dropping new projects. As such, we try to give everyone with Fiat in their hands, the chance to swap to something more technologically advanced and secure. We try to get as many payment options on board as possible, but initially our capabilities are limited. Some of the payment methods we intend to accept are:

• US Bank Wire (ACH)
• EU Bank Wire (SEPA)
• Moneygram
• Western Union
• PerfectMoney.com
• Ukash.com
• Webmoney
• Mobile Carrier Payments

(The section below is here to show what can be done)
Once we have the licenses and are operational there is a lot more we can and will do. For example, as a PSP organization within the EU you basically function as a “bank” (without the money lending though). So what does that exactly mean?

• We can offer insurance on fiat stored on our platform (up to 100,000.00 €)
• EU residents will get their very own IBAN code. That means that users can give their employer that IBAN and their monthly salaries will be automatically transferred into Bitshares through the platform!
• We can issue debit cards (I’m not an advocate of this though)
• Faster and Better banking infrastructure
• more “legality” to the entire project.

This will be our legal tender for EU residents, but it is our intention to increase the benefits and offers for our users in every country in the world.


What are our goals with this project?

Short-term: Build the very first legal and automatic USD <-> PTS exchange! Not only that, but we do also want to initiate our educational mission for Bitshares, Keyhotee and Protoshares. Some of the methods mentioned here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1578.0 will be used. But our short-term goal is it to prepare ourselves with the needed material for the Bitshares launch so we can get started on educating and acquiring more and more users!

Mid-Term: From the beginning on we want to be one of the first Bitshares exchanges and online wallets. As mentioned above, we do also want to work closely with future DAC’s and implement them on our exchange and wallet. For specific and quite interesting DAC’s that show a true purpose (such as the LTBCoin for example) we will help with the promotion through our platform. For the “DAC Owners Manual” platform I intend to get as many past-founders and people “that have been there and done that” on board as possible and have them share their experience. This platform should eventually grow to an independent community where like-minded people meet each other and come up with the craziest ideas.

Long-Term: Have my mother, that does not know how to turn on a PC (no I am not kidding), understand DAC’s and join a project through her own initiative! Obviously that is a very long sighted goal but I think we have a very clear roadmap on how we need to proceed. With the right resources and the community we will be able to cross and obstacle.

TL;DR The exchange platform is there to lower the barrier of entry to Bitshares and other DAC’s. Additionally it creates an easy to use environment that can be understood and used by your average non-tech oriented user. We will invest heavily on the educational and adaption part of this and other projects!



My inquiry to the community is it to invest some Angelshares to this mission so we can get fully started.  The invested money will be used exclusively on the project and will be spent in an open and transparent way.
As mentioned, our first object is it to set-up a functional (and legal) Protoshares <-> Fiat exchange with a multi-signature wallet. After that is completed, we will simultaneously focus on an international expansion and creation of the actual trading platform.
I will also set-up a blog so the entire community will get daily/weekly updates on the progress.

This is a project by the community for the community and the future of DAC's. Therefore I will be happy to get more participants to help us with this project. If you are interested in joining this, please just send me a message with your skillset and what exactly you want to work on!


So what do you guys think: Should Angelshares be invested in this project or not? Please post your opinion below!

The exact required sum will be discussed in detail with the Invictus members and the community can decide whether it is adequate or not in the next thread.


Update on our progress

Legal progress:

• We have talked with several lawyers over the last week (Hong Kong, Singapore, London, Berlin and the US) and we have set-up a proper proposition on how to get the initial PTS<->Fiat exchange up and running without much hassle.
• We have been responded to by multiple MTB & MSB licensed businesses and we are currently in talks to work with them for the future. We are just waiting for the support of the community to proceed here.

Development progress:

• The initial design concept has already been made and we are currently working on a blueprint. Once that is done, we can simply forward it to my friend (who owns a design and dev. company) to work on the front-end.
• For the wallet we are trying to partner with Bitgo