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Messages - bitbadger

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16
General Discussion / Re: A lesson to learn from Counterparty?
« on: March 27, 2014, 03:29:58 am »
"OP_RETURN was originally meant to store 80 bytes of extra data in a bitcoin transaction, but the core developers slashed it to 40 bytes. This upset CounterParty, because as a financial trading platform that allows people to create new asset classes and financial derivatives to be traded on the bitcoin block chain, it says that it needed those 80 bytes to store its data."

http://www.coindesk.com/developers-battle-bitcoin-block-chain/


are bitsharesX affected from this situation ???

No, BitShares are not affected at all, BitShares are 100% independent from the Bitcoin blockchain.  Counterparty is 100% dependent on the Bitcoin blockchain.

This is a set of circumstances which favors Bitshares.

Well, yes, in a way, but no, in a way.  Yes in that it means that Bitshares "controls its own destiny" so to speak.  No in that the Counterparty devs didn't have to worry about any of the low-level stuff like mining or blockchain security, so they were able to create and deploy Counterparty very quickly, and they are essentially the first to market with a distributed exchange where users can create and trade different assets.

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Maybe have a way to pass BitAssets to alt chains like Dogecoin? I actually would think it's cool if BitUSD could be spent from a Dogecoin wallet.

Even with Counterparty this will not be possible, the Bitcoin/Dogecoin/whatever wallet has no idea that Counterparty even exists.  You would need a Counterparty wallet which reads the transactions in the Doge blockchain.  The value of Doge is not important, it is only used as a transport.  Counterparty transactions currently send .0001086 BTC from one address to the other.  This amount of BTC could hold .0001 XCP or 1000000 XCP.  So if you had 10 XCP and wanted to send 1 XCP to 10 addresses, you would need to send 10x .0001086 BTC to each of those addresses, + Bitcoin transaction fees.  Counterparty literally rides on top of BTC, it pays transaction costs in BTC.  If you have a BTC address with 0 BTC, you could theoretically hold XCP in that same address, but you would not be able to make transactions with them until you got at least .0001086 BTC.

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How many of these sorts of overlays can a chain support? I think its a good idea for them to move away from Bitcoin. Bitcoin was becoming too centralized, and Dogecoin is a pretty good choice. If they are successful is another matter, right now XCP is hard to use and I don't see it catching on with Dogecoin as no one wants to put their savings into Dogecoin.

Theoretically, infinite.  The underlying coin itself has no knowledge of the Counterparty or Mastercoin transactions.  XCP transactions are encoded as data within the transaction, whether as explicit data in OP_RETURN or "hidden" in multi-sig addresses. 

An example in a fake Counterparty-like protocol: Imagine if you sent .0000001 BTC to the address "1HeyManNiceShotluckybit213Jk2R3".  The "HeyMan" protocol would be looking for transactions to addresses starting in "1HeyMan".  It then parses the rest of it and executes a "NiceShot" transaction with "luckybit" for the amount of 213.  This isn't exactly how Counterparty works, but it gives you the idea.  The transaction data is "hidden" in normal BTC/DOGE/whatever transactions.

17
How about this for a simple solution?

There are lots of examples where the same product is marketed under different names to reach different demographics.

Dodge and Plymouth produced the Neon and the Colt
Plymouth and Chrysler produced the Voyager
Pontiac and Ferrari did the GTO
Nissan Quest and Mercury Villager were essentially identical.

So we could release Keyhotee in many different flavors, named to gain traction in different markets:

Keyhotee 屠龙
Keyhotee Drachentöter
Keyhotee драконов
Keyhotee קוטל הדרקונים
Keyhotee δρακοντοκτόνος
Keyhotee ドラゴンスレイヤー
Keyhotee smokow

Interestingly, half the languages I checked used the same exact word:  dragonslayer!

I would be fully in favor of rebranding as Keyslayer.  Keytoter would be nice too.  "Killer" in German but "Tote" has a nice connotation in English as well, which actually kind of describes what Keyhotee does!  It carries your keys for you.

18
But if you barter trade something that's worth $1500 for something else that's worth $1500, how is that a gain?

If you buy something for 10¢ and use it later to buy something that is worth $10,000, then under IRS rules for barter, you have to pay tax on the $9,999.90 gain.

See above, it is a Like-Kind Exchange and you can defer taxes on it.  You can do a Like-Kind Exchange for capital property that is not one of the excluded categories.  Virtual currencies are not one of the excluded categories.

Stan's point above about BitAssets is based on the idea of Like-Kind Exchange, which I am hoping will pass the Laugh Test.  It should, as BitAssets are like Ziploc bags with different amounts of poker chips in them. One kind has $1 worth, another kind €1, yet another kind ¥1 worth, etc., but they all are just little plastic bags containing the same kind of poker chip.

Buying a Lambourghini with some bitcoins that one bought for 5¢ each a few years ago obviously would not be a Like-Kind Exchange.

No, trading bitcoins for a Lamborghini would definitely not be a Like-Kind Exchange.  The IRS rules are very specific about Like-Kind Exchanges.  Even trading a pickup truck for a Lamborghini would not constitute a like-kind exchange, although trading a Ferrari for a Lamborghini would be a like-kind exchange.  It is my interpretation that standard crypto-currencies (i.e., those not explicitly tied to outside assets) qualify for like-kind exchanges, as they are not on the excluded list (see quoted section below).

I am not sure about BitAssets though.  In particular, BitUSD might constitute a "debt" or IOU, which is equivalent to money, so therefore any trade resulting in the transfer of BitUSD could constitute a "sale" which is a taxable event.  (I know that Ripple's implementation of USD trading involves the explicit creation of IOU-style USD instruments by third parties.) And some BitAssets might correspond with shares of stock, which are specifically excluded from Like-Kind Exchanges, so trades in and out of those BitAssets might be taxable events as well.  I think that it will depend on the BitAssets in question, but IMO anybody trading in BitAssets should be prepared to fully document all of their trades and pay taxes on them accordingly.

I do not think that the argument that all BitAssets are essentially the same financial instrument (i.e., they are all BitShares) will pass the smell test.  If people start using Bitcoin Colored Coins to represent interests in real estate, there is obviously a difference between a Colored Coin of nominal denomination 0.01BTC which carries an ownership interest in a house, and standard BTC used as a currency.  Trading 100 BTC for that Colored Coin would technically just be trading BTC for BTC, but the addition of real estate makes it obviously not a Like-Kind Exchange.

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What property qualifies for a Like-Kind Exchange?

Both the relinquished property you sell and the replacement property you buy must meet certain requirements.

Both properties must be held for use in a trade or business or for investment.   Property used primarily for personal use, like a primary residence or a second home or vacation home, does not qualify for like-kind exchange treatment.

Both properties must be similar enough to qualify as "like-kind."  Like-kind property is property of the same nature, character or class.  Quality or grade does not matter. Most real estate will be like-kind to other real estate.  For example, real property that is improved with a residential rental house is like-kind to vacant land.  One exception for real estate is that property within the United States is not like-kind to property outside of the United States.  Also, improvements that are conveyed without land are not of like kind to land.

Real property and personal property can both qualify as exchange properties under Section 1031; but real property can never be like-kind to personal property. In personal property exchanges, the rules pertaining to what qualifies as like-kind are more restrictive than the rules pertaining to real property.  As an example,  cars are not like-kind to trucks.

Finally, certain types of property are specifically excluded from Section 1031 treatment. Section 1031 does not apply to exchanges of:

    Inventory or stock in trade
    Stocks, bonds, or notes
    Other securities or debt
    Partnership interests
    Certificates of trust

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Like-Kind-Exchanges-Under-IRC-Code-Section-1031

Once again, I am not an accountant or other financial or legal professional, and the information in this post does not constitute legal, accounting, or other professional advice.

19
But if you barter trade something that's worth $1500 for something else that's worth $1500, how is that a gain?

If you buy something for 10¢ and use it later to buy something that is worth $10,000, then under IRS rules for barter, you have to pay tax on the $9,999.90 gain.

See above, it is a Like-Kind Exchange and you can defer taxes on it.  You can do a Like-Kind Exchange for capital property that is not one of the excluded categories.  Virtual currencies are not one of the excluded categories.

20
It would be considered a gain if you had paid less than $1500 for the good you had bartered per http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch14.html as discussed specifically
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How To Figure Gain or Loss

You figure gain or loss on a sale or trade of property by comparing the amount you realize with the adjusted basis of the property.
Gain.   If the amount you realize from a sale or trade is more than the adjusted basis of the property you transfer, the difference is a gain.

Loss.   If the adjusted basis of the property you transfer is more than the amount you realize, the difference is a loss.

Adjusted basis.   The adjusted basis of property is your original cost or other original basis properly adjusted (increased or decreased) for certain items. See chapter 13 for more information about determining the adjusted basis of property.

Amount realized.   The amount you realize from a sale or trade of property is everything you receive for the property minus your expenses of sale (such as redemption fees, sales commissions, sales charges, or exit fees). Amount realized includes the money you receive plus the fair market value of any property or services you receive. If you received a note or other debt instrument for the property, see How To Figure Gain or Loss in chapter 4 of Publication 550 to figure the amount realized.

If you finance the buyer's purchase of your property and the debt instrument does not provide for adequate stated interest, the unstated interest that you must report as ordinary income will reduce the amount realized from the sale. For more information, see Publication 537.
Fair market value.   Fair market value is the price at which the property would change hands between a buyer and a seller, neither being forced to buy or sell and both having reasonable knowledge of all the relevant facts.

Example.

You trade A Company stock with an adjusted basis of $7,000 for B Company stock with a fair market value of $10,000, which is your amount realized. Your gain is $3,000 ($10,000 − $7,000).

That example uses stocks, which are specifically exempted from being eligible for like-kind exchanges.
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Like-Kind-Exchanges-Under-IRC-Code-Section-1031
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Whenever you sell business or investment property and you have a gain, you generally have to pay tax on the gain at the time of sale. IRC Section 1031 provides an exception and allows you to postpone paying tax on the gain if you reinvest the proceeds in similar property as part of a qualifying like-kind exchange. Gain deferred in a like-kind exchange under IRC Section 1031 is tax-deferred, but it is not tax-free.

....snip....

Both the relinquished property you sell and the replacement property you buy must meet certain requirements.

Both properties must be held for use in a trade or business or for investment.   Property used primarily for personal use, like a primary residence or a second home or vacation home, does not qualify for like-kind exchange treatment.

Both properties must be similar enough to qualify as "like-kind."  Like-kind property is property of the same nature, character or class.  Quality or grade does not matter. Most real estate will be like-kind to other real estate.  For example, real property that is improved with a residential rental house is like-kind to vacant land.  One exception for real estate is that property within the United States is not like-kind to property outside of the United States.  Also, improvements that are conveyed without land are not of like kind to land.

Real property and personal property can both qualify as exchange properties under Section 1031; but real property can never be like-kind to personal property. In personal property exchanges, the rules pertaining to what qualifies as like-kind are more restrictive than the rules pertaining to real property.  As an example,  cars are not like-kind to trucks.

Finally, certain types of property are specifically excluded from Section 1031 treatment. Section 1031 does not apply to exchanges of:

    Inventory or stock in trade
    Stocks, bonds, or notes
    Other securities or debt
    Partnership interests
    Certificates of trust

So, are crypto-currencies any of the above?  They are not stocks or securities.  Unless you make a business of selling them to retail customers, they are not your inventory or stock in trade.  Therefore they should be eligible for a like-kind exchange, which is non-taxable.  You are only taxed when you "sell" them, i.e. convert to "money".

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By calling it property they are treating it as barter. Barter still gets taxed at the $ price of the property.

So there is no way around the draconian taxes.

But if you barter trade something that's worth $1500 for something else that's worth $1500, how is that a gain?

22
The crux of the matter is that trades of property for property are taxed as if they are sales based upon the value of the property traded.  If that property is a service that you provide you are taxed at the market value of that service.  If that property is a good you created you are taxed at the market value of the good, although you can write off costs.  If that property is a good you purchased you are taxed at the difference between what you paid for it and the market value at time of trade.  If you have held the good for more than 1 year the appreciated is taxed at the lower capital gains rate.  If held less than a year it is reported and taxed as income.

The value of the property traded is the same.  Take my example from above.  I first trade 1.0BTC for 25LTC.  Both the 1.0BTC and the 25LTC are valued at $1,000.  I later trade 25LTC for 1.5BTC.  The 25LTC and the 1.5BTC are both valued at $1500.  There is no gain made in either trade.

This doesn't work when you're reading old rules about stock markets.  There is no stock exchange in the world that will let me trade 1 share of stock in Company A for 3 shares of stock in Company B without first selling the Company A share for fiat (i.e., currency, i.e., money -- foreign currencies are recognized as "money" by the IRS), and then buying the 3 shares of Company B with that money.  So if I have realized a monetary gain in Stock A, I must report that gain and pay taxes on it at the time of the sale.

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if you read all of http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch14.html it makes it pretty clear that the IRS believes it has the right to steal your property (collect taxes) even on exchanges that never touch the dollar.

I should not have specified just the USD, it applies to all fiat or otherwise recognized currencies/"money" throughout the world.

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Once again http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf leads me to believe that the organized group of thugs we call the IRS believes that mining rewards are to be counted as income within the year they are mined.  Specifically
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Q-8: Does a taxpayer who “mines” virt
ual currency (for example, uses computer
resources to validate Bitcoin transactions
and maintain the public Bitcoin
transaction ledger) realize gross income
upon receipt of the virtual currency
resulting from those activities?
A-8:
Yes, when a taxpayer successfully “mines”
virtual currency, the fair market value
of the virtual currency as of
the date of receipt is includible in gross income. See
Publication 525,
Taxable and Nontaxable Income
, for more information on taxable
income

This is why I said that miners should pay out their mining earnings to fiat ASAP, and buy back cryptos using fiat to hold for capital gains.  EDIT: There is a distinction here as well.  If you are mining as a "business" then you can report your gains as a self-employed individual, see Question 9 on the linked PDF, "Is an individual who “mines” virtual currency as a trade or business subject to self-employment tax on the income derived from those activities?"  IIRC, the distinction between a "business" and the folks who would need to include it under their "gross income" (as in Question 8, which you quoted) comes under the "Business or Hobby" rules, which I won't get into here, but IMO it's always safer to classify money-making enterprises as a Business although it involves more paperwork.  Suffice it to say, if you mine more than $1000 worth of cryptos in a year, you should probably count it as a Business.

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but barter trades that never touch a currency unit are still taxable as if they were converted to USD on both sides.

But if you barter trade something that's worth $1500 for something else that's worth $1500, how is that a gain?

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  However, trading 25 LTC for 1.5 BTC is still a like-for-like exchange.

This has not been proven in any court case. You're taking a huge gamble here saying the courts would make that decision. What is the history of like-for-like exchange? Where is the precedent?

Because they just called it property!  READ what I wrote above!  A "sale" involves "money"!  Cryptos are not "money"!  This is exactly why they released this statement, to provide guidance since nobody has ever gone to court over it!

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If you're wrong in this gamble you will owe the IRS potentially thousands if not millions of dollars.

Pfffffff! LOL, thousands if not millions?  Can I just ask, how old are you, and have you ever dealt with the IRS beyond simply filing your taxes?  I can tell you, my entire crypto-currencies bought sold and owned totals to about $5000, max.  The IRS can fine you, but the fines have to be reasonable and tied to the amount un-reported/un-paid/cheated/whatever.  If I had made tens of millions of dollars in crypto trades, then maybe they could go after me for millions, if I didn't report ANY of it properly.

People make out the IRS to be some crazy entity that can ruin your life and throw you in jail.  I can tell you, it will take many years of outright tax evasion to reach that point.  I personally have had to pay ~$2000 in fines, penalties and interest to the IRS over the years for various small stuff.  (I'm self-employed, and I do my own taxes, so sometimes stuff gets messed up, or turned in late.)  They're actually pretty reasonable, and they can't charge you anything grossly disproportionate to the amounts involved.  If you owe $20k in taxes, and you don't pay it, they can't charge you $200k for it, no matter how blatantly you broke the law.

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So when the government hacks into and spies on the exchange you think the information isn't going to get passed to the IRS? The IRS can see everything and have legal authority to hack into the exchange to find out the tax situation.

There is a thing called a warrant, and in-admissible evidence.  I would like to see the IRS try to come after you with illegally obtained evidence.

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Not only that but they can hack into your bank accounts, or sneak and search your house while you're away on a vacation. There is nothing you can do to stop the IRS from eventually figuring out how to tax cryptocurrency and I don't see why we should even try to avoid taxes.

They don't need to hack into my bank accounts, they can presumably see them all the time.  My bank accounts are a completely separate matter from holdings that I might have in cryptocurrency.  I advocate playing the "straight and narrow" when it comes to anything going in or out of your bank accounts.  Just assume the IRS has a full copy of everything.

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But that is not what the clarification is saying you should do. It's saying when you receive payment in cryptocurrency you have to report the cash amount. They don't care about the cryptocurrency or when you cash out, they say it's taxed the moment you receive the payment at whatever it was when you received it.

When you receive payment for goods or services rendered, yes.  If you're simply trading, no.

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Then if it goes up in price before you can spend it you must pay capital gain on top of income taxes.

This is true.

Because I can't trade my emails for USD or other fiat?  And because emails aren't some fungible currency in limited supply?  I mean, that is a bizarre comparison.
So if you and I agree that emails are worth money, now it can be taxed?

It's not bizarre at all if you think about the origins of cryptocurrency and Bitcoin in particular.[/quote]

If emails can be worth money per se, then yes their conversion into or out of fiat money would be subject to taxation.

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That free means no capital gains taxes. So what I mean to say is we should follow Denmark and make it capital gains free.

Income taxes are fine although it would be better if we didn't have to worry about that, I would say we could compromise there but capital gains taxes suck for a young industry like this.

There is nothing in the world that is not subject to capital gains taxes!  You buy a house, you sell it for more later, you pay capital gains (except for a few special exceptions, since the IRS treats real property as a special case).  You buy a car, you sell it for more later, you pay capital gains.  You buy a baseball card, you sell it for more later, you pay capital gains.  (Assuming you hold it for more than a year; if you hold it for less than a year, it is considered self-employment income.)  You buy a Tickle Me Elmo toy, you sell it for more later, you pay capital gains.

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It ends up being like a sales tax on every transaction.

No, it's not like a sales tax, since 1) capital gains can be offset by capital losses; and 2) a conversion from one crypto-currency into another does not create a taxable event.

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Capital gains taxes are a tax on cryptocurrency trades.

You trade between Bitcoin and Litecoin and you must pay a capital gains tax. That is something none of us like and it does not benefit the industry as a whole to have it like that right now.

No, see my above post and the distinction that the IRS makes between a "sale" (which must include money) and a "trade" (which is trading property).  Crypto-currencies are property and not money.  And actually, thank God that they ruled this way, or else we would have to pay taxes on every transaction.

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It worked fine for the Internet. Did you pay the Internet sales taxes in the 1990s?

Sales tax is a completely different subject.  Sales tax is regulated by the individual states, not the federal government.  Since the beginning of sales taxes, sales taxes were exempt on items purchased in other states.  It worked this way when you ordered something from a paper catalog from out-of-state.  You didn't pay sales tax because the seller was out-of-state.  When the Internet came along, it inherited the same rules that already existed.  Even in the 90's, Internet companies charged sales tax to in-state customers.

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That isn't what lawyers have said, or accountants. I suggest you talk to a professional before trying to interpret tax laws on your own.

Who?  The IRS just released these rules today, have you already talked to a lawyer or accountant about it?  Has a lawyer or accountant publicly stated their interpretations of these rules?

25
I think it might be more complicated than that.  I'm not an expert in any way, but in reading http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch14.html I stumbled across
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What Is a Sale or Trade?

This section explains what is a sale or trade. It also explains certain transactions and events that are treated as sales or trades.

A sale is generally a transfer of property for money or a mortgage, note, or other promise to pay money.

A trade is a transfer of property for other property or services and may be taxed in the same way as a sale.

I am glad that you posted this, it brings us to the crux of the matter.  See the distinction made up there between a sale and a trade?  A sale occurs when property is traded for money.  A trade occurs when property is traded for property.  The IRS has stated that crypto-currencies are property and not money.

Since crypto-currencies are called property by the IRS, and not money, the conversion or exchange of one crypto for another cannot be called a "sale".  It is hard to argue that any crypto is a "mortgage, note, or other promise to pay money".  Perhaps when BitUSD is created, it could be considered a "promise to pay money" and thus transfers/exchanges in/out of BitUSD would be considered sales.  I know that the Ripple exchanges trade explicit "IOU's" issued by private companies.  That part is tricky, and I'm not prepared to provide an opinion on that.

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How To Figure Gain or Loss

You figure gain or loss on a sale or trade of property by comparing the amount you realize with the adjusted basis of the property.
Gain.   If the amount you realize from a sale or trade is more than the adjusted basis of the property you transfer, the difference is a gain.

Loss.   If the adjusted basis of the property you transfer is more than the amount you realize, the difference is a loss.

Adjusted basis.   The adjusted basis of property is your original cost or other original basis properly adjusted (increased or decreased) for certain items. See chapter 13 for more information about determining the adjusted basis of property.

Amount realized.   The amount you realize from a sale or trade of property is everything you receive for the property minus your expenses of sale (such as redemption fees, sales commissions, sales charges, or exit fees). Amount realized includes the money you receive plus the fair market value of any property or services you receive. If you received a note or other debt instrument for the property, see How To Figure Gain or Loss in chapter 4 of Publication 550 to figure the amount realized.

If you finance the buyer's purchase of your property and the debt instrument does not provide for adequate stated interest, the unstated interest that you must report as ordinary income will reduce the amount realized from the sale. For more information, see Publication 537.
Fair market value.   Fair market value is the price at which the property would change hands between a buyer and a seller, neither being forced to buy or sell and both having reasonable knowledge of all the relevant facts.

Let's take a hypothetical.  I have 1 BTC.  It is worth $1000, I bought it from Coinbase for $1000.  I trade it on an exchange, directly for 25 LTC.  This is an equivalent exchange. I have not made or lost money on the exchange.  The two amounts are equal, in dollar terms.

Now I wait a while, the value of LTC has gone up, I trade those 25 LTC for 1.5 BTC.  1 BTC is still worth $1000.  Now what has happened?  I have gained $500 in value from the appreciation of the LTC.  However, trading 25 LTC for 1.5 BTC is still a like-for-like exchange.  I had $1500 worth of LTC, now I have $1500 worth of BTC.  I don't have $1500, I have $1500 worth of BTC.  I haven't realized any gains.  My gains come from the appreciation of LTC, not the trade itself. 

If I could pay taxes in BTC (i.e. if BTC were recognized as a "currency" by the IRS and not a piece of property), then maybe I would have to pay 20% in capital gains on my BTC.  But I can't pay taxes in BTC, BTC are not currency or money, so my taxes are deferred until I transfer my 1.5 BTC to Coinbase and receive $1500 in my bank account.

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1) mining and/or premining rewards- When you receive your rewards (need more clarity on if this is moment of confirmation or moment of payout from a pool to external address.  probably the former if my understanding of stock awards is accurate and relevant) this is taxed as income at fair market value.  This must be reported as income.

Mining is the same as creating an asset for sale.  Say you have a business making furniture.  You buy $100 worth of wood, add your labor and create a table that you are going to sell for $1000.  Do you pay taxes when you make the table?  No, you pay taxes when you sell the table and get $1000.

Stock awards are different.  The company awards you $20k in stock on 1/1/14, the company records $20k in expenses (so they don't have to pay taxes on that $20k) and you record $20k as income (so you do have to pay taxes on that $20k).  If the valuation were allowed to "float" until you actually sold the stock, the accounting would be all screwed up.  So you record $20k as income, you pay taxes on that $20k, you hold the stock for 5 years and it turns into $30,000.  You sell for $30k, and you pay taxes on the profit of $10k, since $20k was your basis.

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Topic 409 - Capital Gains and Losses

Almost everything you own and use for personal or investment purposes is a capital asset. Examples include a home, personal-use items like household furnishings, and stocks or bonds held as investments. When a capital asset is sold, the difference between the basis in the asset and the amount it is sold for is a capital gain or a capital loss. Generally, an asset's basis is its cost; however, if you received the asset as a gift or inheritance, refer to Topic 703 for information about your basis. You have a capital gain if you sell the asset for more than your basis. You have a capital loss if you sell the asset for less than your basis. Losses from the sale of personal-use property, such as your home or car, are not deductible.

Once again, refer to the definition of sale at the top -- cryptos are not money, you cannot "sell" anything for cryptos according to the IRS.

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Leads me to believe that if you have held a property for less than a year and you trade it for another property any gain in the value since you received that property is taxed at the income tax rate.

Yes, if you buy BTC and hold it for less than a year before you sell it, your gains will be taxed at your income tax rate.  This is the same as counting it as self-employment income.

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3) Capital gains from barter trades or sales of assets-  If you have held a property more than a year and then sell and or trade it for another property you will report it as capital gains, and pay the capital gains tax rate.

Yes, this should be how it works, the IRS has not stated anything to contradict this.

Now, this may lead to the need for some creative accounting if you're a miner.  You should sell all of your mining earnings and convert them into USD.  This is considered your self-employment income.  If you want to hold cryptos long-term, you should purchase them from your USD holdings instead of just holding on to your mining earnings.  This clearly puts the cryptos mined into the "income" side and the long-term cryptos into the "capital gains" side.  If you mine some coins and hold them for 3 years, ALL of the appreciation would likely have to be considered as "income" and be taxed at the higher income rate rather than the long-term capital gains rate.

NOTE: I am not a CPA or any kind of tax, financial, or legal professional, and my statements do not constitute legal, accounting, or other professional advice.  (And any CPA who came on here and gave such advice would be pretty dumb, it could expose him to liability.)

In the end, it is up to the individual to interpret the tax laws, and to follow precedents from tax courts.  If you use a CPA for your taxes, your CPA will do it in a way that he feels legally comfortable, but it may not be to your maximum advantage.  If you do your own taxes, you are left to interpret the laws yourself, and as long as you take a reasonable, straightforward interpretation and file and pay your taxes properly in good faith then you cannot be prosecuted for tax fraud, although you may face administrative fines if you are found to have under-paid.  You are not obligated to interpret rules in such a way as to maximize your taxes paid.

26
That's not the advice I received. Don't assume the IRS isn't tracking it and it's actually very easy to track since the blockchain is public and exchanges have to pay taxes or face compliance.

The blockchain is public, but exchanges aren't.  Addresses aren't connected (if you're careful).  If I send 1.0 BTC to BTer.com from address 1ABC, and exchange it for 3 crypto-currencies, trade and profit, and eventually withdraw 2.0 BTC from BTer.com to address 1XYZ, how the hell can they even know that 1ABC and 1XYZ are connected?  That's the whole point, addresses are anonymous.

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Rather than assume they can't, assume they can and will. Do you want to be the person who loses a fortune due to tax issues?

I'm not going to be hiding anything from the IRS.  When I get a payout in USD, I will count those USD as income.  My entire crypto mining and trading operation will be taxed as self-employment income.  I am already self-employed in my day job, so I'm familiar with how to do it.

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So why aren't you paying a tax on your emails? After all it's impossible to think that something like email could be tax free.

Because I can't trade my emails for USD or other fiat?  And because emails aren't some fungible currency in limited supply?  I mean, that is a bizarre comparison.

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If you don't try to make it tax free of course it wont be. It's the same with network neutrality, how you have people pushing for that, or privacy. Why do you assume the IRS can't track our transactions on the one hand but on the other you say we shouldn't push to make it tax free?

What do you mean by "tax free"?  It IS tax-free at this point.  You don't pay taxes on your BTC holdings any more than you pay taxes on your stock holdings, or your USD holdings, or your EUR holdings.  But when you cash them out, they are taxed as income.  As they should be.  (Putting aside for now that the IRS and income tax is possibly illegal, immoral, blah blah blah... ok, assuming that the IRS has the right to tax your income, it has a right to tax income made by mining or trading crypto-currencies.  Period.)  A business that deals in cryptos is no different from a business that deals in stocks, bonds, baseball cards, classic cars, or barrels of oil.  If the business profits, it will be taxed.  If it is a small business, unincorporated, with a single owner, then it is taxed as self-employment income.

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We should push for the most favorable tax status possible and that is tax free. It may not be tax free forever but if it is tax free for a while it allows the industry to develop unimpeded and unhindered. There will be trillions of dollars for the government to make in taxes in a mature industry but we wont get there if we crush innovation.

I have never seen a call for taxing crypto-currencies per se.  If they were wanting to charge a tax of 5% per transaction, that is what I would call a tax on crypto-currencies, and I would fight it tooth and nail.  Or if they required you to hand in 10% of your crypto holdings, yearly.  That would be absurd.  But if you profit from a business, and those profits are realized as dollars in your bank account, you owe taxes on those profits.  Clear and simple.

If I buy 1.0 BTC for $500, hold it for 2 years, and sell it for $1500, what do I owe taxes on?  The $1000 gain.  The gain is what is taxed, not the BTC.  If I mined 25 BTC in 2009 and have not sold them, and I sell them for $25k in 2014, what do I owe taxes on?  $25k, minus whatever the costs in hardware and electricity were in 2009 (which would probably not be much, but if you claimed $1000 for the PC then you could probably pass muster with the IRS).

Sorry, but crypto-currencies are never going to get whatever kind of special, protected, un-taxed status that you desire in your dreamworld.  It would be horribly unfair.

Indeed, I wonder if you go from BitUSD to BitGold to BitBTC to XTS and back a hundred times without ever leaving BitShares X did you ever really change financial instruments?

I'm taking the stance (and I believe that it is a defensible stance) that as long as I'm in crypto-currencies, period, it doesn't count as changing financial instruments.  It is a like-kind exchange, which is tax-deferred.  Pay taxes when you cash out.  It's not income until it's dollars in your bank account.  Simple as that.

If I were to sell BTC for USD, and then use USD to buy LTC, I would have to treat the sale of BTC as taxable, and note the purchase of LTC as a cost basis for whenever I sell those LTC or other cryptos which I might use the LTC to acquire.  But if I simply exchange BTC for LTC, there's no taxable event.  The direct exchange of BTC to LTC is not tied to any cost basis in USD.  It's simply trading one baseball card for another.  Until I sell my baseball cards for fiat, I don't have a taxable event.

27
I agree, I think that Keyhotee will never catch on with that name.  It's quite off-putting (you really have to think about how to pronounce it -- I think that most people would pronounce the middle syllable "hot" and not be able to make the connection with Don Quixote) and I actually think of Don Quixote in a negative light as well.  "Tilting at windmills" is generally a negative phrase.  I haven't said anything so far because I know how nerds love their puns.  (Don't stone me, I'm a nerd too!)

I think that the "can it be used as a verb" thing is important.  In a perfect world, I would choose "Keyper", "Keypr", "Keepr", or something like that.  It seems that all of those domain names are taken.  We need some short verb that at least kinda makes sense to use with "Key".  Keyfixer/Keyfixr?  KeyHopper?  Keydigger?  KeyZapper?  KeypTabs?  KeypMe?

I think people would end up associating the name Keyhotee with the product Keyhotee and little else and it would not preclude it from being successful.  So if people like the product, they will come to like the name.  "Yahoo" doesn't have any good connotations; look up the definition.

The definitions for yahoo I found:
a rude, noisy, or violent person
a boorish, crass, or stupid person

It is also something that you shout when you're having fun, which I think is most Americans' first thought when hearing it.  Plus it is 2 syllables and hard to mispronounce.

I would wager that 50% of Americans couldn't tell you anything about Don Quixote or how to pronounce his name.

28
Keyhotee / Re: When will free Identity registration start?
« on: March 26, 2014, 01:31:56 am »
I think a good way for Invictus to capture additional fundraising would be to allow the purchase of something akin to "AngelID's" for Keyhotee ID's.

This could allow those who missed the initial Founder period to be able to obtain a custom ID before mining begins.

I suggest that these ID's carry some identification and other benefits beyond that of mined ID's, but maybe not with as many benefits as the Founder ID's.

Differences from Founder ID's:

1. They have already missed out on the gifted Founder AGS.

2. Different colored names (maybe Platinum or Gold for Founders, Silver for Angels)

3. Include AngelID's in the Exodus block, Founder's in the Genesis block (is this possible?)

Edit: Also - advertise this availability on LTB network and other bitcoin / DAC friendly avenues.

Very good idea.  It would also bring in more funds for AngelShares, not to mention it would being in a second rush of individuals who would have been interested in founder ID's in the first place but, due to a severely limited marketing campaign, did not even hear about the founder ID's until after it was over. 

Good idea.

I think so too!  I don't even care for any recognition, I just want to be able to pre-reserve some names at some price.

29
I agree, I think that Keyhotee will never catch on with that name.  It's quite off-putting (you really have to think about how to pronounce it -- I think that most people would pronounce the middle syllable "hot" and not be able to make the connection with Don Quixote) and I actually think of Don Quixote in a negative light as well.  "Tilting at windmills" is generally a negative phrase.  I haven't said anything so far because I know how nerds love their puns.  (Don't stone me, I'm a nerd too!)

I think that the "can it be used as a verb" thing is important.  In a perfect world, I would choose "Keyper", "Keypr", "Keepr", or something like that.  It seems that all of those domain names are taken.  We need some short verb that at least kinda makes sense to use with "Key".  Keyfixer/Keyfixr?  KeyHopper?  Keydigger?  KeyZapper?  KeypTabs?  KeypMe?

30
Basically it states that Bitcoin mining should be treated like any other business (you get paid in BTC => your earnings are reportable based on USD price of BTC at the time when you receive it), and that crypto-currencies should be treated as capital assets (like stock) rather than as currencies (trading in foreign currencies has its own set of rules, which I am not familiar with).

Basically, it is a very straightforward decision of how crypto-currencies, and businesses that deal in crypto-currencies, should pay their taxes. 

IMO a very good thing.  First, it's good just to be recognized as something that needs addressing by the IRS.  Second, it's not a banning/outlawing/threatening.... it admits that it's out there, and that it is just an asset that can be bought and sold; and if somebody makes money buying and selling it, they should be paying taxes on their earnings.

Not familiar with US legislation. Does anyone have a guess whether this will move the price up or downwoards?

It's not going to move the price but its a pain in the ass for taxpayers to have to try and track every trade. It's probably impossible to do it with the current technology as this would have to be built into clients themselves to work.

Bitshares wont have this problem as much because of how it's designed but if you use Cryptsy it means you have to track every single trade and the capital gains on everything.

If you use all sorts of mining pools, Cryptsy and sites which are shut down or the information is just lost, you'll have to deal with the IRS someday unless we can get a law passed to make cryptocurrency tax free.

Technology doesn't solve every problem. Sometimes you have to work the system to get a favorable bill passed and that is the reason to interface with regulators.

I'm not seeing it so much like that.... there is no way to track stuff on exchanges and everything.  It would be very hard for you to keep track of it, but more importantly, there is no way for the IRS to keep track of it.  Most people buy (or mine) crypto-currencies, trade, and if they cash out, they use BTC as the final medium before exchange into fiat.  Everything that comes before that (exchanges and whatnot) is pretty much impossible to track.  (Well, some of it is possible to *track*, but most of it is impossible to tie to a particular individual, and once it's moved onto an exchange, you can kiss all address-tracking goodbye.)  As long as you keep a rough [money in - money out] accounting, that should be plenty good enough for the IRS.

I think of it as being like "realized gains" for stocks... if you don't sell your stock then you don't need to pay taxes on it, no matter how much it gains.  The sale of stocks creates a taxable event.  If you're mining, you should keep track of your expenses and your earnings, in USD.  If you mine coins and hold them, then you don't have to pay taxes on them until you sell them for USD, because the gains have not been realized.  But if you're mining coins and cashing them out constantly, you need to keep track of all of the cash-out transactions.  I'm sure that Coinbase et al. report their payouts to the IRS.

There's no way that Bitshares, Bitcoin, or any crypto-currency is ever going to be made "tax-free".  You can trade all day in REAL currencies, but you have to pay taxes on your earnings.  You can trade in baseball cards, but if you make a profit then you have to pay taxes on it.  If you make a (realized) profit then it constitutes income = you pay taxes.

The IRS talking about valuing things at their market value at the time of the transaction is mostly in the sections about paying employees in cryptos.  This is the same as paying employees with stock.  The stock is valued at the date of the transaction occurring.  This is, crucially, because the business gets to deduct the employee's salary from their profit when paying taxes, so the business and the employee must value the stock the same.  If the company says that they grants $20,000 in stock to an employee, they get to write off $20,000 as an expense (employee compensation) while the employee must show $20,000 in income (and pay taxes on it).  This keeps the books even.  If the employee holds their $20,000 in stock for 5 years and it goes down to $0, they don't get to say their income was $0 during that time.  They chose not to cash out that stock.  The same thing would apply to paying employees in crypto.

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