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Messages - bitbadger

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Whilst I share your expectation that we have only just started, that still doesnt answer the point that a 400% bull run makes a 50% crash very likely, and not a "black swan" scenario.

Apologies, my post could have been clearer.

When assets bubble and crash it is because value flows into and then out of the asset.

With BTSX it is a one way trip. Value enters via BTSX and flows to cryptives backed by BTSX.

So when BTSX 'crashes' the value flows to bitUSD, bitCNY etc. rather than to fiat, BTC, etc.

This, combined with the very high mobility of crypto-equity (crypto-value?) may result in sustained absorbtion of a vast amount of capital that never leaves the system.

Ie. BTSX just keeps going up. And up. And up.

At least that's what I'd like to see... ;)

Sorry but this is assumes that most BTSX trading takes place on the X exchange, which is not the case. And its not a satisfying answer for someone who is not yet convinced by BTSX.

if BTSX -> bitAsset trading occurs on external exchanges (ie. Bter BTSX -> bitUSD) the traded value is still retained in the Bitshares ecosystem.

Certainly if BTSX -> notbitAsset trading occurs on external exchanges (ie. Bter BTSX -> BTC) value leaves the ecosystem.

What I am plugging is that going forward there will be less and less motivation to move value outside of the ecosystem.

ie. why trade BTSX for BTC when you can trade BTSX for bitBTC (faster transfers, TITAN, etc.) or bitBTC5 (faster transfers, TITAN, ROI).

All of this retained value will ultimately be reflected in the market cap of BTSX.

Kind of a Hotel California scenario.

The problem atm is that most people keep their holdings on exchanges to buy and sell for short term profits. This will change hopefully as more people grasp the concept of bitAssets.

Yes, exactly.  There are people who basically live on the 3rd party exchanges and never even download the wallet for the coins that they trade.  It would be interesting to know how many BTSX are held by 3rd party exchanges. 

Apparently over 10,000 BTC worth has been traded on 3rd party exchanges in the past 24 hours.  That is $5M of volume in BTSX on 3rd party exchanges. 

Or, to put it into direct terms, ~125 Million of the 2 Billion BTSX available, or roughly 1/16th of the entire supply, has changed hands within the past 24 hours... on 3rd party exchanges.  Of course, a lot of these coins have been churned, so reduce by a factor of 2 or 4, but still that's a substantial amount of BTSX on 3rd party exchanges and not held in wallets.

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General Discussion / Re: What do you guys think about Darkcoin?
« on: May 27, 2014, 04:39:44 am »
Can't you just use a browser plug in like Dark Wallet (alpha stage) and make Bitcoin transactions just as stealthy as Darkcoin?
Yes .. you can ..

If you just want to send, yes.  If you want to receive, you'll have to make sure your sender uses Dark Wallet as well.  With Darkcoin, mixing is built in to the client and enabled as default.

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General Discussion / Re: What do you guys think about Darkcoin?
« on: May 23, 2014, 09:45:27 am »
I am riding high with DRK.  It is the only coin that I know of where the dev is committed to the addition of important new features over time, eschewing the "no-hard-forks" "stability" that most devs try to enforce.  Most devs act as "hands-off gods" who code their coin, release it into the wild and subsequently only make critical security upgrades when necessary.  The idea of a coin whose very ideas are not set in stone, is in itself unique.  (In theory, Bitcoin and others allow for continued development, but their pace of development is laughably slow.... by the time Bitcoin implements a new feature, it will have existed in an altcoin for months if not years.)

The idea of "Masternodes" who earn 10% of all mined coins, and which act as coin-mixers, and which must be seeded with 1000 DRK (locked while the Masternode is running) is actually kind of similar to the "Trustees" in dPoS.  The 1000 DRK requirement has also created a positive feedback loop where the coins are effectively removed from the market, driving the price up, which in turn makes the Masternodes more profitable because they earn new coins daily without mining.

The anonymity features are also great, of course, and what everybody is excited about right now.  But I will say that I am at least as excited by the developer's competence and commitment to continued active development as I am by any of the existing features.  It is not the typical "release new version only when flaws are found" coin.  I fully expect DRK to implement some Bitcoin-2.0 features within a year (after all the anonymity features have been fully implemented).  AFAIK, Counterparty could be easily adapted to work on top of DRK, and I don't see any reason why it couldn't be fully supported by DRK itself (as opposed to the sometimes oppositional relationship between XCP and BTC devs).

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General Discussion / Re: You should read this
« on: April 11, 2014, 06:03:39 pm »
I would be all for honoring BTC holders with 5% or even 10%.  I'd be willing to donate 5%.  Perhaps Invictus could agree to give 5% of their Bitshares?  I'm sure they're the largest holder.

However, I would want there to be a cap of some sort.  It would be silly to give MtGox, or the CounterpartyXXXXXXX burn address, a bunch of BTS-X shares.  Cap it at crediting, say, a maximum of 100 BTC per address.  I know this doesn't eliminate all BTC whales (most of whom likely have their coins spread across multiple addresses) but it does help somewhat.  You could also eliminate dust addresses; anything less than 0.0001 BTC doesn't get included.  This would be more of a practical matter to keep from having to add millions of worthless addresses to the Genesis block.

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DAC PLAY / Re: What games do we want to play?
« on: April 08, 2014, 04:49:55 pm »
Craps!  This will be a bit harder than a simple lottery, as state has to be maintained, but I think it is more fun than any simple memory-less game.

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General Discussion / Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« on: April 02, 2014, 06:03:18 am »
The problem with random round robin, is that a director could become a dictator with just a tad bit of mining to select himself again.  Though I suppose you could set it up so that you are out of the running if you have been selected in the past 10 blocks....

You're right, I forgot this mining isn't hard, so it wouldn't be hard to brute-force the desired hashes.

Maybe make it so that any director can never mine more than 2 blocks in a row.  If the hash comes up to the same director, move on to the next 2 digits in the hash.

Well, no, there's a problem with that too.  A cabal of Directors could come up with hashes that would only pass it around within their group.  And this would be possible for a cabal of any size; if we implemented the "past 10 blocks" rule, then a cabal of 11 Directors could hold the chain indefinitely.  Hmmm....

Ok, how's this: Random round-robin, but nobody can have a turn before everybody else has had a turn, and no back-to-back blocks for any Director (in case they happen to be the last block of one round, they can't be the first block of the next round).

I just don't want there to be a pre-determined flow of blocks from one to the next Director.  Then a set of, say, a given 3 directors would always be mining 3 blocks in a row, and they could collude to allow a double-spend or something.

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General Discussion / Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« on: April 02, 2014, 05:35:32 am »
Quote
Well, this round-robin "Board of Directors" does sound better than a single "Trustee"/"Timekeeper", but the move away from some sort of PoS implementation leaves me much less comfortable with BitShares.  I have refined some of the ideas that I've come up with and posted on this board earlie

Define PoS... I have kept the spirit of PoS and added a simple delegation... it is like mining pools without the barriers to entry or the risk of trusting your coins to someone else.   

I reviewed the rest of your proposal and find it very interesting but still suspect that is suffers one of the biggest problems to overcome: it is too complex to analyze all potential attacks.    It also suffers from the fact that it is more costly (bandwidth, blockchain size) due to the overhead of proof-of-connection and these costs make it less competitive. 

I think the key is to remove the randomness from the equation and increase the size of the board of directors until you are sure it is decentralized enough.    One though on increasing the size of the BOD is to have every BOD member post collateral equal to the earnings from 100 blocks.  If they fail to produce a block on schedule or voluntarily resign with enough notice then they lose 100 blocks worth of pay.   With this setup you could increase the size of the BOD to a minimum 1% of the votes.    You also cause anyone running for a BOD position to promise better than 99% uptime or they will lose money.   If you do this though then the round-robin technique would have to be adjusted to be proportional to the number of votes you have.   I may have to make it proportional anyway so that shareholders are fairly represented... but perhaps by not making it proportional shareholders will be encouraged to diversify who they support least they reduce their influence.

Well, with each addition to the # of directors, this gets more and more palatable to me, but still it feels like an awful compromise compared to a pure PoS implementation.  I agree with the "Is it better than Bitcoin?" test is a good one, but at the same time, it's a low bar to pass.  You had a good idea with TaPoS, and stake being implemented as destruction of transaction fees.  I believe in you and your ability to brain-muscle your way through the various problems with PoS.  I think you're one of the few people in the world who could get it right.  I hope that, at least, once you get done with BitShares implemented as a BoD, and a bunch of DACs are up and running successfully, you turn your mind toward the PoS problem once again.

You are right, of course; the attack vectors for PoS are numerous, but I think the attacks will only get more concentrated/powerful/sustained by selecting certain nodes to act as Directors.

How will the "campaigning" work?  How will the voting work?  How will I verify that my chosen Director is fulfilling his duties?  Will any of this take place on a sideband, such as this forum?  I do like the idea of thinking of the Directors like a "pool" which is competing for miners.

I think the voting should not require a minimum % needed, no maximum % cap; instead, the top 100 (or 50, or whatever; perhaps it should scale to the # of votes in the system?  5k votes = 10 Directors, 50k votes = 100?  Something like that) vote-getters will always be Directors, and blocks will be randomly round-robin'd based on the hash of the previous block.  First 2 digits found in the hash, determine the director.  a0jEdoKf0 = director #00, rQ3k4pR5 = director #34, etc.  Director #00 = top vote-getter, and so on. 

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General Discussion / Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« on: April 02, 2014, 04:20:01 am »
Why do you need 'blocks' as such for transactions in this kind of scheme? When you send a transaction, it can get signed by 2-3 'metronodes' and then it is accepted by the network. This will also make transactions near instantaneous, limited only by speed of network propagation.

Might not be for this, but in future it will be interesting if we get some 'on-demand' chain instead of a blockchain.

Because each block is proven with a hash.  You can prove all of the transactions in the block by proving the block.  Each block also proves the prior blocks in the chain.  An atomic transaction system that still uses a chain-like structure like you propose would require each transaction to be rather large.

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General Discussion / Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« on: April 02, 2014, 04:15:21 am »
Well, this round-robin "Board of Directors" does sound better than a single "Trustee"/"Timekeeper", but the move away from some sort of PoS implementation leaves me much less comfortable with BitShares.  I have refined some of the ideas that I've come up with and posted on this board earlier, and created a proposal for a new implementation of Proof-of-Stake with Proof-of-Connection.  I think that it fixes many of the issues that current PoS coins have.  I have recently posted this to both bitcointalk and peercointalk forums.  This will be my last attempt to convince you to go with PoS.  I believe that you, Dan, have the ability to implement this better than anybody else could.  This proposal has the benefit of being compatible with TaPoS, and I believe that it is novel.

There are two parts to this proposal: Stake-Days (and Stake-Days Destroyed) and Proof-of-Connection.

Stake-Days are the rough analogue of Coin-Days.  As Stake-Days go up, PoS mining difficulty goes down.  If I hold 30 coins for 30 days, my Stake-Days are equal to 900.  This is the equivalent of somebody with 900 coins holding them for 1 day.  The key part is this: My Stake-Days only drop back to 0 when I actually mine a block with that stake.  Since Stake-Days are only reset to 0 when a block is mined, they can be transferred from one address to another without being reset.  The stake travels along with the coins (and can probably be additive within a given address, although this may make things too complicated).  If I receive coins from you, and your coins have Stake-Days built up, I receive that stake when I receive the coins, and my chances of mining a block with that stake are just as high as they were when you held that stake.  (So sending a transaction from one of your own addresses, to another of your own addresses, if you were vying for a block in TaPoS, would NOT destroy your Stake-Days.  You could simply try again with the next block.)  Proof-of-Stake mining still remains a stochastic process, but every address has its own difficulty level based on the stake associated with that address.

Now for Proof-of-Connection.  A big problem with existing PoS coins (and indeed, PoW coins) is that nobody is incentivized to run a full node.  With (say) PeerCoin, if I have low stake and little chance of mining a PoS block, I can turn off my PeerCoin client and leave it off for a month or three while my stake continues to build.  I am not helping to secure the network or propagate transactions when my node is turned off.

So there needs to be a way to make stake dependent on running a node continuously.  The proposed mechanism for this is as follows:  Every block has a hash.  Let's say the hash for a given block starts with ABC.  Once this block is created, every address matching AxxxxxxBxxxxxxC (or some other formulation; this is just an example) must "check in" by sending a transaction to themselves to prove that they're connected.  These Proof-of-Connection transactions will be included in the next mined blocks.  This transaction does not lose Stake-Days or Coin-Days.  If this Proof-of-Connection transaction does not appear in a block within X blocks (perhaps 30 minutes' worth?) of the triggering block, their Stake-Days drops back to 0.  This would prevent people from accumulating stake by simply keeping their coins dormant.

The parameters could be chosen to try different lengths of expected-time-to-check-in, which would also be dependent on the block production rate.  I would suggest a target of something between 6 and 24 hours, although given the random nature of this process, and in the interest of having smaller blocks, perhaps longer times could be used.  On a coin with fast blocks, maybe 2 or 3 bytes would be required to match; on a coin with slow blocks, just 1 or 2.  Of course, full bytes would not necessarily be required; it could be a bitwise match of a certain number of arbitrary bits from the hash of a block, matched with arbitrary bits from the coin address.  Full bytes just make it easier to understand.

The Proof-of-Connection transactions will include the hash of the entire blockchain up to and including triggering block, signed with the address's private key, in order to tie the PoC transaction with the block that triggered it and also to prove that the address is running a full node.  Due to the random nature of this process, all stakeholders will be incentivized to keep their nodes up and running all the time.  If they want to shut down for a few days, they will simply not earn stake during that time.

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General Discussion / Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« on: April 01, 2014, 09:08:13 pm »
First of all the largest shareholder in BTS systems has less than 10% and the remaining shares are divided among 1000s.

You have no way of knowing this, because you have no way of knowing the owners of the BTC and PTS addresses.  Could be one guy with 1000s of addresses.  Of course we can be pretty sure that it's more than one guy, just based on the people in this forum, but there could easily be far greater concentration than you are aware of at this moment.

Everyone participates in securing the network and making it immutable.   No other system has this property of being immutable because it is always possible to mine longer alternative chains whether it is POS or POW.   No other system has as every shareholder participating in the securing of the network and ultimately ratifying the ledger.   You could say that TaPOS means that eventually every transaction is confirmed and ratified by 90% or more of the shareholders.   

Mining a longer alternative chain in PoS would require very significant ownership in order of having a good chance of mining 2 or more blocks in a row.  I'm pretty sure that it is way more than 51%.  This is because stake is reset to 0 when a block is mined.  If you have a large number of coins held by a single address, ok, that's a large stake, but it's all reset to 0 when a block is mined, so there is no chance for that address to mine the next block.  If you have a large number of coins held by multiple addresses all owned by the same attacker, that's more possible, but because each of these will be reset to 0 each time, the number of blocks in a row that can be mined is very limited.  Each address taking part in the attack will need to have more stake than the rest of the network combined.  So the first address used in the attack will need to have 51% of all stake; the second address used in the attack will need 25%; the third address used in the attack will need 13%; and so on.  So for an attack to be successful for one block, the attacker needs 51%; for two blocks, they will need 76%; for 3 blocks, they will need 89% of all stake.  (Of course, this is different than owning 89% of all coins, but you get the idea.)

(Side note: It would be nice to have, somehow visible within the interface or on a website or whatever, a list of all current stake.  That way we could see if stake is being built up somewhere.)

(As another thought about stake: How about making an increase in stake dependent on running a node?  I don't think that this has been done before.  Every block has a hash.  Let's say the hash starts with ABC.  Every node with address matching AxxxxxxBxxxxxxC (or some other formulation) must "check in" by sending a transaction to themselves to prove that they're connected.  This transaction does not lose stake-days or coin-days, and in fact it is required in order for stake-days to be increased, which will be proportionate to the timestamp of the last block they had to "check in."  If they do not "check in" within 10 blocks of the triggering block, their stake-days drops back to 0.  This would prevent people from accumulating stake by simply keeping their coins dormant.  In this way, NOBODY could ever accumulate significant amounts of stake; the top stakeholder would always be the most likely to produce the very next block, because they are verified connected to the network.  Yes, this will require people to keep their wallets unlocked for staking.  This is how all PoS coins currently work anyway.  Perhaps an arrangement can be found with custodial addresses which can remain be unlocked and have 0 coins, but "manage" the stake for other addresses, at perhaps some loss to privacy.)

You could say no, they only need for each individual stake address to have more stake than any other individual address.  So say that
the attacker has 5% stake in one address, 4% in another, 3% in another, 2% in another, and all individual addresses in the rest of the network only have 1% or less.  The mining of a stake block is still a stochastic process.  Having the largest stake does not mean that you are guaranteed the next block.  The only way to guarantee it is to have 51% of all stake.  (However, in the implementation of PoS that you had previously developed which depended upon transactions and coin-days-destroyed to determine who gets to mine the next block, I suppose the mining process is more deterministic.  I can kind of see that you might have painted yourself into a corner by doing PoS-by-way-of-transactions instead of a more standard PoS implementation.)

There are two kinds of decentralization:  power & redundancy.

Again, I would refer to the "autonomous" part of "DAC".  "Autonomous" means "without human intervention".  "Autonomous" means that I trust the code, not a person.  I don't trust one copy of the code doing a particular thing (being the trustee/timekeeper/whatever), and my copy of the code doing something else (running a regular node); I trust that EVERYBODY has the same code and is doing the same thing.  That's what Peer-to-Peer is all about.  An at-least-nominally-equal playing field for every user.  Now you're proposing to make some users "more equal than others".  Not cool.

I touched on this last night, but I am really not seeing the "forks" problem.  The fact is, most forks create blocks which contain the same transactions.  As long as the transactions are recognized as valid by all nodes, a fork is not going to screw anything up.

I create a transaction.  That transaction is passed to my peer nodes, who pass it to their peer nodes, etc. until it's propagated throughout the network.  All nodes keep this transaction in their transaction memories, let's call this a TIM, Transaction-In-Memory.  All nodes know about this transaction after a fairly short time and keep it in their TIM register.   That is, until that transaction has been put into a block and that block has been confirmed by some number of blocks.  If we are concerned about forks, we can make that number high, like 50 blocks for a transaction to fully confirm and it is removed from the memory of the nodes, and its place in the blockchain is solidified, so all references to that transaction now refer to the blockchain instead of the TIM.

Importantly, all nodes verify these transactions before they are added to the blockchain.  In theory, any transaction which is not eligible to be placed in the blockchain will not be propagated at all.  So again let's take a chained transaction pair, A->B and B->C.  As long as A->B has propagated throughout the nodes and is held in the TIM registers of the nodes, all nodes will recognize B->C as a valid transaction, whether or not A->B has made it into the blockchain yet.  If A attempts a double-spend and creates a second transaction A->D with the same inputs, all honest nodes will reject this transaction and not propagate it, because those inputs had already been used in the A->B transaction which already exists as a TIM.

Now what happens if A creates A->B and A->D simultaneously, and sends them to separate peer nodes, so A->B propagates through part of the network and A->D propagates through the rest of the network.  So then you have half of the network saying that A->B is correct and rejecting A->D (and therefore accepting B->C since there are valid inputs into B), and the other half saying that A->D is correct and rejecting A->B (and therefore rejecting B->C). 

Now, we have several ways to resolve this.  The simplest one could simply be to see whichever one makes it into the blockchain first; if A->B happened to propagate first to the node that mines the next block, it will be included; and vice-versa with A->D.  A somewhat more complicated but perhaps more honesty-enforcing way to deal with it would be for A->B and A->D (and any further transactions with the same inputs) to be immediately rejected (and kept in memory in a "rejected" list for a short while; perhaps A could be blacklisted as an attempted double-spender, at least for a few days).  Remember, we know that A->B and A->D had to have both been initiated by A due to cryptographic signature, and any legit client software would not allow the double-spend to occur in the first place, so A would definitely be a bad actor in this case.  Of course, there is always the chance that one of the two transactions would be put into a block first anyway, before the miner knows about the 2nd transaction.

The great thing about PoS mining is that 51% attacks are not possible without owning 51% of the stake; and the only real way for forks to matter is for somebody to be able to execute a 51% attack.  (To refresh everyone's memory on a 51% attack: the attacker's (A) hashrate is faster than the rest of the network (B) combined.  Therefore, they can produce blocks at a faster rate than the rest of the network combined.  They propagate a transaction, A->C, on the B network, where it gets included in a block.  C then believes that they have received payment from A.  The B network can continue producing blocks and confirmations of the A->C transaction.  C becomes more comfortable with the payment from A as the transaction gets confirmed multiple times.  In the meantime, the A network is producing blocks faster than the B network, and keeping them hidden from the B network.  The A network includes a transaction A->D, with the same inputs as A->C.  At some point, once the A network has produced more blocks than the B network, the A network releases its produced blocks to the B network, and they must be accepted since the A blockchain is longer than the B blockchain.  This new blockchain has A->D but does not have A->C.  So C is out the coins that he thought that he had.  This is a problem if, say, C is an exchange, and had credited those coins to A, who then traded them for other coins and withdrew them from the exchange, and then the exchange is left in the lurch because they are missing the coins they thought they received from A.)

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General Discussion / Re: Profits, Performance, Trust & Efficiency
« on: April 01, 2014, 04:44:27 am »
I'd prefer to trust in my ability to protect my private key than to trust a trustee. A digital company shouldn't require any voting or representatives to vote on behalf of shareholders. Otherwise it defeats the purpose of calling it a DAC because it is no longer autonomous in the slightest sense because instead of the code taking care of that now we have to rely on people.

Agreed!  Not to mention that any "voting" implies human agency as well as rapid and accurate dispersion of information, like we're all going to be sitting at our BitShares consoles all day, and browsing the BitShares forum all day, ready to change our vote if something bad happens, because the only way that we can be sure that something bad is happening would be to talk about it with others and see if they're seeing what we're seeing.  And there's going to be plenty of potential for rumor-mongering, scare-mongering, and other kinds of Social Engineering.  Not to mention just plain whining, "I submitted my transaction at 10:25 and it wasn't included in a block until 10:29, waaah waah, the trustee is blocking my transactions!"

With proof of stake your private key is your proof.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you mean private keys have to be risked with POS (forging) because they can not be used for forging when they are in cold storage?

They don't if you can sign for a delegate! Keep 90% in cold storage and have your 10% hot wallet sign for all of them. You could easily have revocation keys so you wouldn't have to take your shares out of cold storage to take away the voting power if your hot wallet is swiped.

I was thinking something similar.  Why couldn't you link your address to another address that has zero coins assigned to it.  You could then put your real wallet into cold storage and the empty wallet could provide security through POS.  If someone hacks my PC they would only get my voting power, and only until I pulled my wallet out of cold storage and used it to sign a new block with a new link.  Am I making sense?  Could this work?

Yes, one of the coins (I forget which) has a "Savings Address" (like a Savings Account vs. a Checking Account) where the Savings Address transactions are recallable/cancelable for a certain amount of time, and transaction output must go to a certain address (the "Checking" address) and to no other.  In this case, the Savings Address could assign its Stake-Days to the Checking Address, but the Savings coins themselves could be kept in a cold wallet.

I don't know that I completely understand the power that the trustee(s) have and what happens if all trustees colluded.  But, I'm willing to reserve judgement if you think it's the best system and give it a shot.

I think that if the mechanisms are not well communicated there would be a lot of FUD that would affect initial demand/value.

A trustee is just a node that asserts it saw a block by signing it. It stops forks, but gives the power to stall the network OR perform a double-spend with cooperation of a large number of shares. They would get caught though, which is actually really important.

I think that some of the concern about forks is over-wrought.  In traditional PoW coins like Bitcoin, the blocks themselves might be different, but the transactions in the blocks are largely the same.  Most importantly, the ordering of transactions can never be switched because the inputs must be validated by the miner (and indeed, all nodes).  If I've got 2 chained transactions A->B, B->C, both of those transactions can be included in the same block, or A->B in the first block, and B->C in the next, but never B->C then A->B because B will not have the input from A, and it will be rejected.

Without a trustee all other technical solutions are attempts to do the following:
1) Randomly select someone proportional to their stake in the system... they become 'trustee for a block'.
2) Pay / Punish this person for not producing a block.

As I have suggested in the past, the "Punish" option is not necessary: you could simply negate the "Stake-Day Destruction" that would have happened if they had won the block, so they can try again.  The Stake-Days are only destroyed when a block is created with those coins, and the Stake is associated with the coins, not the address.  In the imagined "send a large transaction from myself to myself in order to try for a PoS block" scenario, the same user ends up with the same stake as before, just in a different address.  If they create a transaction with a large number of Stake-Days with one of the outputs being another user's address, the recipient will now hold the Stake (and they might end up being the miner of the new block, based on receiving that Stake).

As soon as you have this random selection you simultaneously open up the network for random attacks by anonymous parties.  The sheer number of hypothetical attacks that are possible under these 'random selection' processes means that the network is likely less secure and predictable.   All of a sudden people start mining blocks that exclude bids/asks to their benefit or to trigger margin calls.   Put another way, randomly selecting people to produce blocks gets you 'average' performance and 'random' manipulation.   Delegating through your proof of stake to a trustee maximizes the predictability and fairness of the chain. 

This seems hand-wavey, is there an example of an attack which would work better on a bunch of random nodes than one one central, known node?  (Even if they had backups and multiple network locations, that's still a much smaller number of targets than the potential entire network.)

Effectively 'delegation' using your stake is exactly what I am proposing.   Person A delegates to person B, who in turn can delegate to person C.   Eventually all of the delegates have to arrive at a 51% consensus on who produces the next block.   If someone sets up some software in a 'set it and forget it' manner then the network is perfectly safe unless this person is attacked.   If they are attacked then the network can quickly appoint (probably pre-arranged) the fallback. 

At any time someone with stake can change who they delegate their vote to. 

If we can stay objective here and identify what attack we are afraid of and define what we are attempting to defend against in the most clear way possible then we can find the best solution.   Get to the *root* of the problem and solve that.

Without getting to the root we have solutions in search of problems and we end up paying for things that we do not need or even want (mining).

The problem with delegation chains is that we will end up with essentially the same situation as Bitcoin: a mining cabal of ~15 individuals who have accumulated power, and whose decisions can affect everybody.  The "votes" will end up concentrated in the hands of a few individuals, who will all be well-informed and well-connected, but essentially you could end up with all kinds of bribery and corruption.  Say we've got 2 main candidates for Trustee, at 52% and 48%; you know the guy with 48% will be lobbying all of the 5% holders to change their vote and make him the Trustee.  Hell, the 5% guy may end up getting his jollies switching from one Trustee to the other with each block!  And sure, eventually the people who had delegated their votes to the 5% guy will switch away, but they're probably not going to get any immediate signs that something's going wrong.

My hopes for BTS were not just about decentralization per se.  They were about removal of trust from any individual, or group of individuals.  Trust only the code, because you can read the code and bash the code and improve the code yourself.  Now we have to trust some set of individuals to make the right decisions?  That's BS.  I mean hell, I'll just quote Stan's definition of a DAC:

Quote
Distributed Autonomous Corporations (DAC) run without any human involvement under the control of an incorruptible set of business rules. (That’s why they must be distributed and autonomous.) These rules are implemented as publicly auditable open source software distributed across the computers of their stakeholders.
  (Emphasis added)

I know this was a long-ass post, I'm sorry but I wanted to get my thoughts out there.  I'm not even done catching up on this thread but I've got to go.  I have very serious concerns with this new direction.  I know that I'm just one voice out of many, but hopefully some of my thoughts will make a difference.

12
General Discussion / Re: Decentralization is a Means, not an End
« on: April 01, 2014, 03:36:13 am »
So is this a way of saying that you're implementing some sort of previously-undisclosed centralized component to BTS?

Nothing has been kept back and there are no central points of control.

Ok, sorry, I have been away for a couple of days and missed these threads:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3865.0
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3812.0

These changes will take some time to be digested.  I'm sure that the speed of release will be improved, and probably the implementation security, but still I'm disappointed that the PoS-style mining has been removed completely.

13
General Discussion / Re: Decentralization is a Means, not an End
« on: March 31, 2014, 10:36:53 pm »
So is this a way of saying that you're implementing some sort of previously-undisclosed centralized component to BTS?

14
In case you havn't noticed yet the majority doesnt want to change or alter the name, you are in the "weak" blockchain fork.

So, please leave the name alone unless you have good arguments. And dont forget that keyhotee's true power will come from what it will offer to its users, this is revolulotionary, so please stop trying to treat it like a normal mail service that needs a "good" name in order to succeed. Keyhotee is doomed to SUCCED and already has the best name IMO.

Apology for poor english.

Your English is not bad at all.  Just a few misspellings, no grammatical errors.

But to the point: It's actually not that simple!  Currently 28 people want to change the name (given the 3 choices, none of which were all that great IMHO) while 24 want to keep it.  So the majority actually wants to change it, they just didn't agree on what to change it to.

That's not correct. 4 ppl prefer BitMail, 13 prefer BitKey, 12 prefer KeyMail, 25 prefer Keyhotee. This doesn't mean for example that the 13 that prefer BitKey would choose KeyMail over Keyhotee. Precisely: They just said, that in a given case (and the poll question assumes as it would be a given case; which contradicts the option for Keyhotee again), they prefer the Name they choose... 
Other problem: Keyhotee was added to the poll when half of the votes where given, which might have had an effect.
Other than that: 37 people here on the forum can hardly represent all AGS/PTS holders.

All of this is true.  It was somewhat of a flawed poll.  But I think it's telling that slightly over 1/2 of the people who come here, on the Bitshares forum, in the Keyhotee section, think that it should be changed from Keyhotee to something else.

15
In case you havn't noticed yet the majority doesnt want to change or alter the name, you are in the "weak" blockchain fork.

So, please leave the name alone unless you have good arguments. And dont forget that keyhotee's true power will come from what it will offer to its users, this is revolulotionary, so please stop trying to treat it like a normal mail service that needs a "good" name in order to succeed. Keyhotee is doomed to SUCCED and already has the best name IMO.

Apology for poor english.

Your English is not bad at all.  Just a few misspellings, no grammatical errors.

But to the point: It's actually not that simple!  Currently 28 people want to change the name (given the 3 choices, none of which were all that great IMHO) while 24 want to keep it.  So the majority actually wants to change it, they just didn't agree on what to change it to.

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