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Messages - bitbadger

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76
Marketplace / Re: 10 PTS Bounty - AGS / PTS Graphic Explaining Snapshot Process
« on: February 23, 2014, 09:35:08 pm »
Quote from: toast on February 23, 2014, 04:32:55 pm
I don't like the lightning. A critical feature of the original picture was that the allocation proportions were shown (might not be clear because it was a shitty picture). The lightning should be replaced with something that shows value transfer correctly, like have input/output arrow width be the right proportion or something. Also AGS/PTS bars shapes should represent their growth over time but that is less important.

Hmm, I get what you're saying, but I think the value of having a lightning bolt (or some other non-arrow symbol) is to show that it doesn't represent a diminishing of the originally held asset.  You just said "value transfer", but that's not really what it is.  It's the creation of new value, and the assignment of that value based on the existing state of something else.  The use of arrows would make it look like something is flowing OUT of PTS and AGS, but that's not what's happening.  AGS and PTS continue on, undiminished.  (Which, AFAIK, is one of the main points of this chart; to show people that their PTS and AGS will not disappear once BTSXT is launched.)

In any case, I worked on it for a while, I did not feel that I could make the arrows convey the information properly.  This is partially due to my limitations as a designer.  I think I know what you mean (you see charts in magazines and such that show money flows like this: http://aleklett.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/figure-2-8-the-global-energy-system-2010.jpg ) but sometimes even fancier.  I don't have the skills to do that and make it look good, and I believe there's probably some software better suited to that kind of chart than what I'm using here.

I think that the "50% PTS, 50% AGS" text clarifies the situation sufficiently (it's even pan-lingual); and even if I managed to get the arrows to all be sized proportionately, I think that it would still need to be explained somehow, since people see arrows and lines on a chart and don't necessarily assign meaning to their widths.  Plus, now that I've played around with it some, I really think that replacing the bolts with arrows will lead to mis-interpretation.

77
Marketplace / Re: 10 PTS Bounty - AGS / PTS Graphic Explaining Snapshot Process
« on: February 23, 2014, 09:58:03 am »
Ok, how's this?  It's getting kind of busy/gaudy, but I think that color-coding the lightning bolts will aid in understanding.  I also added a disclaimer just so people understand that the DACs shown, and the order of their creation, aren't necessarily set in stone.



I'm going to bed now, I will make any other needed changes tomorrow.  I can think of a few "clean up" changes already; the "Feb 28 Snapshot" isn't cleanly laid out, and I'll move the disclaimer to the bottom corner, and space out the the other text on the left side.... scoot the top timeline dates to the left.

78
Marketplace / Re: 10 PTS Bounty - AGS / PTS Graphic Explaining Snapshot Process
« on: February 23, 2014, 08:44:13 am »
Quote from: bytemaster on February 23, 2014, 08:20:02 am
Quote from: bitbadger on February 23, 2014, 08:16:53 am
Quote from: bytemaster on February 23, 2014, 07:56:42 am

Thank you very much, please post a PTS address.

Cool!  Again, I would be happy to make any necessary changes.

Pei5BrnEUqcCuUdffNZmBPL3rg6duj3vnU

Don't refer to ProtoShares as this is not something we can use officially.    Have  XV snapshot from XI rather than X.   reorder the chains... so that the snapshot doesn't overlap... and replace future DAC with a visual representation of the following...

BitShares Me,  BitShares Bingo, BitShares Music,  BitShares Voice, BitShares Domains....

Ie... give people an idea that these are not empty unknowns...

Ok, how should I include ProtoShares in the graphic without referring to it?  Can I still call it PTS?  I think I've got the rest of your changes figured out, but I thought the point of the graphic was to show how PTS and AGS turn into BTS.

79
Marketplace / Re: 10 PTS Bounty - AGS / PTS Graphic Explaining Snapshot Process
« on: February 23, 2014, 08:16:53 am »
Quote from: bytemaster on February 23, 2014, 07:56:42 am

Thank you very much, please post a PTS address.

Cool!  Again, I would be happy to make any necessary changes.  Note, I made some further edits to the one above.  Use whichever version you like.

Pei5BrnEUqcCuUdffNZmBPL3rg6duj3vnU

80
Marketplace / Re: 10 PTS Bounty - AGS / PTS Graphic Explaining Snapshot Process
« on: February 23, 2014, 07:50:16 am »
Tarted it up a bit and changed some explanatory text.  Also embiggened.




81
Marketplace / Re: 10 PTS Bounty - AGS / PTS Graphic Explaining Snapshot Process
« on: February 23, 2014, 07:15:09 am »


I can refine this, change the text, change colors to match intended branding, get rid of the lightning bolts and replace with plain arrows, whatever.  Also produce hi-res, PDF version, SVG version, whatever.

82
General Discussion / Re: Set automatic expiry on my orders
« on: February 23, 2014, 03:41:41 am »
I think that it will be a necessary feature for the more important markets.  Nodes acting as market makers by placing a bunch of orders around equilibrium, are going to be targeted regularly by attackers.  A home PC with a consumer level ISP connection is not hard to knock off the network indefinitely.  An attacker could be watching the orders, DDOS all critical nodes, blow through all the orders (up and down) and then have the market effectively to themselves.  Having a couple of nodes act in concert (whether controlled by multiple people, or just one person) they could break BitUSD upwards or downwards to wherever they want to put it.

It may be an "edge case" or a "0.01% situation" but the fact is, people can and will intentionally push the markets to the edge, and do what they can to neuter the 99.99% acting to keep the market stable.  This is an open, anonymous network; there is no way to permanently prevent bad actors from accessing the network over and over and over again.

83
General Discussion / Re: Solution to High Volatility potentially breaking the BitUSD Peg
« on: February 23, 2014, 03:35:46 am »
Quote from: Liberty on February 23, 2014, 02:59:19 am
Quote from: bytemaster on February 19, 2014, 08:51:32 am
I solved a major issue in the design of BitShares X as it relates to how we handle the case where the collateral is insufficient to back the short position and thus the result is unbacked BitUSD in circulation.    Considering the value of BitShares X is directly related to the degree to which the holders of BitShares X are willing to guarantee the purchasing power of BitUSD it seems that a decentralized Bank should take the same approach as their centralized counterparts...   Sell new shares in the bank to raise capital to cover the losses.   In effect all BTS holders would provide 'insurance' against the 50% discontinuity event that would blow out a short position and leave unbacked BitUSD.  The reason why BTS longs would insure the BTS shorts is because the entire value proposition of BitShares X is derived from the promise of BitUSD remaining pegged.   If the BTS holders can increase the value of BTS by providing this insurance against a very rare event, it should in turn increase confidence and thus increase the value of BTS.

This change would shift the losses that BitUSD holders would currently pay to the BTS holders and thus collectively BTS holders are backing all BitUSD and BitUSD holders have something with much lower risks in these rare events.

It is curious to see a proclaimed student of Austrian Economics turn to central bank intervention of markets. A liquidity problem seems like the real risk, and that is a market participation problem. Is it still correct that people get to own BitUSD from ownership of PTS (and now also AGS) at time of fork, and purchasing power increases 5% per year even though they never participate in the markets? If that is true then it seems natural that market participation would be a problem. People would hoard the stronger form of a currency (BitUSD) and trade the weaker one (USD). I presume I don't understand your plan because I don't see a market incentive to sell BitUSD as the market discovers it to have greater value than real USD.

Many replies to your post indicate a general understanding that your central bank intended to create new BTS as necessary to fund the taking long positions by the bank. It was interesting to see that some even liked the idea of devaluing BTS (which imbalances all other products) to attempt to balance one product. The way I read your post however is that you intend to create a central bank that people can invest existing BTS into. I much prefer that idea, but wonder how that too would work. Investment in this bank subjects capital to more risk; do you have a reward in mind for this risk, and where does this reward come from? Do you intend for the actions of this bank to be automated and not otherwise subject to moral hazard? How do you imagine events would play out if Gresham's Law causes BitUSD to become systemically more valuable than USD in a way that the bank can not compensate for? Do you imagine a bank for each product, or one bank for a group of products?

You may find this a useful perspective on central banking: http://www.cato.org/multimedia/events/31st-annual-monetary-conference-panel-1-100-years-fed-what-have-we-learned.

I do not think you understand what BitUSD is.  BitUSD is pegged to the dollar.  BitUSD are created by using BTS as collateral.  Going short BitUSD is essentially going long BTS.  Going long BitUSD is essentially going short BTS.  You are betting on how many USD will buy one BTS; or conversely, how many BTS will buy one dollar.  Same thing.  BitUSD should never differ much from the actual price of the actual USD.  If people want "good money" per your Gresham's Law reference, then they will have to go somewhere else, because that's NOT what BitUSD is designed to do.

bytemaster: I have been thinking about things and the need to make this absolutely bulletproof.  If it catches on as we hope it will, it will be subject to attacks.  People will be trying to break it constantly.  Attempts at market manipulation will be a daily occurrence.... and unlike Wall Street, access to the network is unlimited and anonymous.  So we have no recourse, no ability to find people's names and prosecute them if they intentionally foul things up.  Individual nodes will be hacked or DDOS attacked to reduce liquidity.  It does not take much DDOS power to derail a home PC with a consumer level ISP connection.

So... how is the Peer-to-Peer aspect of BTS implemented?  Are IP addresses printed in the transactions?  Is there a TOR-like system of IP obfuscation, or are all IP's in the clear?  What happens to the orders/positions generated by a user/node, if that node is knocked off the network?

84
General Discussion / Re: Solution to High Volatility potentially breaking the BitUSD Peg
« on: February 21, 2014, 05:30:11 pm »
The talk of robots has me thinking.  I am sure that many people will write their own robots to essentially act as market makers.  (Surely the robots mentioned previously would not be "official" in any way?  Thus creating a single point of failure...)  These privately-acting robots will always have buy orders of BitUSD at 0.99 and sell orders of BitUSD at 1.01, along with a good stock of BitUSD and BTS to adequately cover these positions.

Now there will be a good number of these critical market-makers.  Maybe even hundreds.... but a few hundreds of IP's, most of them presumably with non-redundant, non-hardened network connections, are not difficult to DDOS attack.  So what happens when critical market participants (who provide liquidity, have tons of orders in the system, and constantly generate new orders based on market conditions) suddenly drop off the network?  Is there a fail-safe somehow?  Because it seems like DDOS'ing the biggest market participants would be the first step in an attack on the market to try to break the buck.  Coupled with the fact that blocks are generated on a predictable schedule, I think there is a vulnerability there.  The blockchain itself would not be affected, but the transactions generated during the attack could unfairly distort the market. 

I suppose that slower block generation would act as somewhat of a fail-safe because of the network hashpower being knocked off, but I don't know enough about the BTS implementation of Proof-of-Stake to know if this will be meaningful or not.  I also know that the network is "Peer-to-peer" like all cryptos, but this term has many meanings.  Could a person theoretically discover every node on the network?  Or is it more like Tor, where the network is multi-layered and obscured?

85
General Discussion / Re: How Exchanges Will Work
« on: February 21, 2014, 08:06:53 am »
Quote from: bytemaster on February 21, 2014, 07:55:41 am
This is called cross-chain-trading and is something that our chains will support on the backend, but which requires additional infrastructure.

Ok, that is the answer that I was looking for!  I suspected that the BTS system would be theoretically capable of this, but wanted to make sure.  Thank you.

86
General Discussion / Re: How Exchanges Will Work
« on: February 21, 2014, 07:52:46 am »
Quote from: bytemaster on February 21, 2014, 07:31:20 am
Quote from: bitbadger on February 21, 2014, 07:14:20 am
Quote from: toast on February 21, 2014, 06:25:01 am
Quote from: bitbadger on February 21, 2014, 06:18:00 am
Quote from: toast on February 20, 2014, 06:28:50 pm
BitAssets are just banknotes.
BTS X lets people trade these banknotes as easily as they trade bitcoin.
Banknotes are more useful than bitcoin because you can expect people to pay roughly their face value for them.

So, to be perfectly clear, all "Exchange" functionality will be in the form of trading BitAssets only?  It will all be a sort of derivatives market, i.e. the underlying assets will never enter the system?  There are no current plans for actual trading of underlying assets?

Sorry to be so repetitive, but this is an important question to me.

Yes, it's a sort of derivative market, everything stays in BTS.

The idea is that the actual trading of the underlying asset is supposed to happen in a distributed manner (trade ***USD for BitUSD like you trade BankUSD for PaperUSD) but with global price discovery enabled by the BTS market.

Thank you for clarifying.  Is there a technical, legal or philosophical reason for never allowing the exchange of actual assets?  Wouldn't the "distributed manner" of actual trading be a great application for BTS, so people don't have to rely on third-party exchanges?

When you combine Ripple with BitShares X you get the full decentralized exchange....

Local trades are much easier because you don't have to match bid/ask/location and instead you only have to match location as the BitUSD/USD price will be the same within a small transaction fee.

I'm not necessarily talking *USD here; I just mean cryptocoins exchanging with other cryptocoins.  (Or other crypto products such as BTS itself.)  A decentralized cryptsy/bter/etc... the BTS network, when making a match, could simultaneously generate transactions in the respective blockchains of the coins traded.  I think that there is a way to do it without making private keys vulnerable, or requiring any coins to be held by the exchange itself.

87
General Discussion / Re: How Exchanges Will Work
« on: February 21, 2014, 07:14:20 am »
Quote from: toast on February 21, 2014, 06:25:01 am
Quote from: bitbadger on February 21, 2014, 06:18:00 am
Quote from: toast on February 20, 2014, 06:28:50 pm
BitAssets are just banknotes.
BTS X lets people trade these banknotes as easily as they trade bitcoin.
Banknotes are more useful than bitcoin because you can expect people to pay roughly their face value for them.

So, to be perfectly clear, all "Exchange" functionality will be in the form of trading BitAssets only?  It will all be a sort of derivatives market, i.e. the underlying assets will never enter the system?  There are no current plans for actual trading of underlying assets?

Sorry to be so repetitive, but this is an important question to me.

Yes, it's a sort of derivative market, everything stays in BTS.

The idea is that the actual trading of the underlying asset is supposed to happen in a distributed manner (trade ***USD for BitUSD like you trade BankUSD for PaperUSD) but with global price discovery enabled by the BTS market.

Thank you for clarifying.  Is there a technical, legal or philosophical reason for never allowing the exchange of actual assets?  Wouldn't the "distributed manner" of actual trading be a great application for BTS, so people don't have to rely on third-party exchanges?

88
General Discussion / Re: How Exchanges Will Work
« on: February 21, 2014, 06:18:00 am »
Quote from: toast on February 20, 2014, 06:28:50 pm
BitAssets are just banknotes.
BTS X lets people trade these banknotes as easily as they trade bitcoin.
Banknotes are more useful than bitcoin because you can expect people to pay roughly their face value for them.

So, to be perfectly clear, all "Exchange" functionality will be in the form of trading BitAssets only?  It will all be a sort of derivatives market, i.e. the underlying assets will never enter the system?  There are no current plans for actual trading of underlying assets?

Sorry to be so repetitive, but this is an important question to me.

89
BitShares AGS / Re: agsexplorer.com vs angelshares.info
« on: February 20, 2014, 09:23:08 pm »
Quote from: fuznuts on February 20, 2014, 06:42:39 pm
Well it has been awhile since I had checked mine...but it seems to be showing up very wrong for both sites for me.  PTS and BTC Qt clients show all tx's as going through though.

So there should be no issues even if the websites are not capturing the correct amount...is this correct?

Don't worry about it.  Check the transactions in your wallet, and look them up with blockr.io.  You will probably find that the "from" address does not agree with the address that you think you have.  This is because the default Qt client creates "change" addresses every time you send coins.  Example:

You have 1.0 BTC in your wallet, address ABC
You send 0.3 BTC to another address, XYZ
The transaction is printed in the blockchain as "ABC sends 0.3 BTC to XYZ.  ABC sends 0.7 BTC to DEF"
The new address DEF is also owned by you, and the private key is in your wallet.
However, you never know that you own DEF because the standard wallet is not transparent about this process.
Later, you send 0.2 BTC to UVW.
This shows up in tbe blockchain as "DEF sends 0.2 BTC to UVW.  DEF sends 0.5 BTC to GHI"
So now your 0.5 BTC is actually under address GHI, not ABC or DEF.  However, ABC, DEF, and GHI are all stored in the same wallet.

Because of this behavior, it is common for folks to send BTC to somebody else, and look for the transaction and not find it under "their" known BTC address.  This is because some of their BTC are actually stored under different addresses.

90
General Discussion / Re: Confusing Bitshare / Pts
« on: February 20, 2014, 08:28:03 pm »
By your use of "oder" above I assume you speak German?

Quote from: Hurlie on February 20, 2014, 06:59:23 pm
Thanks for your answer,

 but it seems to be too complicated for me:
(Perhaps it is only a lingual problem. My knowledge of the english language is minimal)

1.) What is the meaning of "snapshot is taken which determins how BTS is allocated".
Could you please explain it to me in simple english?
- What snapshot?
- How can a snapshot dermine?

PTS-market wird nicht am 28.2.14 geschlossen. Sondern alle Leute, die PTS haben am 28.2.14 23:59:59 pünktlich, BTS bekommen worden.  Wenn man 1.0 PTS am 28.2.14 hat, wird er ungefähr 1.3 BTS bekommen, automatisch.  Er hat auch die originelle 1.0 PTS.  Nicht passiert mit dem PTS, sondern sind die in BTS einfach abgeschrieben.  Vielleicht ist "abgeschrieben" eine gute Übersetzung für "snapshot".  Aber es ist nur für eine pünktliche Moment.  Es passiert einmal, und nie wieder.  "Snapshot" ist ein Software-Entwicklung-Wort, und bedeutet etwas anders in tägliche Englisch.

Quote
2.) 3.) If they drop, it could be neccessary to sell them.
Will the exchanges, like BTER, excepts PTS after the 28.2?
Or have I to wait with the selling, until the "tool to claim BTS" is provided?
That could take some time and the PTS (Bitshare) crashes to ground,
while I can't trade them.

In this case, it would be better, to change them before the 28.2. and
then buy some, when the storm is over.
On the other hand, it could be possible, that the rise:)

Why do you think, that they "can drop"?

Mann weiss nicht, wass mit die PTS danach 28.2.14 passiert können.  Die Market wird nicht gechlossen, aber haben die Wert, wenn die Bitshares verteilt worden?  Vielleicht denkt jemand, dass PTS hat kein Wert; dass alle Wert in PTS, ist in der möglichkeit von BTS.  Vielleicht denken anderen, dass PTS Wert hat, außerhalb von BTS, genausowie Bitcoin oder Litecoin.

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