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Messages - Helikopterben

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61
General Discussion / Dynamic Burning
« on: October 21, 2015, 04:37:10 pm »
Tldr:  Instead of directly burning bts, those bts designated for burning should be dynamically burned by using them  to create bitassets through a special transaction where the only redemption of those bts can occur through a liquidation event (margin call), providing liquidity to the network.  Over time as the value of bts increases, this will work to effectively burn those bts while still providing a benefit to the network.  This thread is intended to provoke thought and find out if there is a better way to manage burning that will be most productive for the network. 


The theory (at best) that value rises as supply is diminished does not necessarily work well in practice.  Burning is kind of like burying perfectly good gold in the ground and throwing away the treasure map in an attempt to make gold holders richer, while that gold still has perfectly good industrial uses.  Imagine if that gold could still be used in an industrial setting but not available to be sold on the open market.  Something similar to this may be possible with bts.  Just as gold is a physical commodity, I see bts as a digital commodity (among other things), useful as collateral to generate bitassets on the bitshares blockchain. 

One example of an asset that does not necessarily add value when the asset is burned is gasoline.  Gasoline is an asset of limited supply that is burned, both literally and figuratively.  To reduce the effects of fiat inflation, we can look at the price of US retail gasoline when priced in real money, gold.  As we can see, US retail gasoline is near a 100 year low when priced in gold even though it is constantly burned.  Obviously other factors are at play, such an advances in technology that make producing gasoline cheaper, but the real value of gasoline may not have been significantly affected by a reduction in supply. 


http://pricedingold.com/us-retail-gasoline/


Another example, Natural Gas:


http://pricedingold.com/natural-gas/


Many bitshares users will not choose to buy, hold, or use bts.  They will only want to trade bitassets.  Furthermore, many users who do decide to hold bts will not choose to short bitassets into existence.  Therefore, there may be a potential shortage of bitassets.  The network will need these bitassets for liquidity and the way I see it, more bitassets in the system adds to liquidity, which attracts more users. 

To add more bitasset liquidity, I propose that instead of burning bts, those bts be used to generate bitassets using a special transaction where the only redemption of those bts can occur through a liquidation event (margin call).  Once created, those bitassets can then be sold on the open market and freely traded by users of the system.  Also, bitassets can be generated for markets where there is high demand.  Over time, as the value of bts rises, many of those bts will be effectively burned, while still being useful as collateral for bitassets. 

For example, right now the bts/usd pair is trading at a rate of 247bts for 1usd.  To achieve a call price of 500bts/usd, a collateral level of 877bts can be used at a collateral ratio of 3.55 to create 1usd.  This would allow for a 50% decline in price until the position is margin called and those bts put back into circulation.  However, if the exchange rate rises to 1bts for 1usd, then the price will have to fall by 99.6% in order for that dollar to be liquidated, effectively burning those 877bts into a permanent 1usd on the blockchain, making those 877bts still useful to the network but not available to the sold for any other asset outside of the blockchain. 

62
In the US Scottrade is seen as a bargain basement trading firm at $7 per trade!! Seriously. Other houses charge $25+ USD PER TRADE!!. Let's get some perspective on what the market will bear.

I'm kind of shocked most of you people don't seem to understand what Bitshares actually is.  Even Bytemaster doesn't seem to acknowledge it.  Bitshares is a decentralized bucket shop (world first?).  You are not trading real stocks or assets.  You can't compare anything about it to real stock markets.  It's a gambling market where you're betting against the somewhat decentralized but non-autonomous house that operates price feeds.  You don't own real assets.  You're not investing in real assets.  All you're doing is gambling.

It's virtualy impossible for there to be a situation where there's X dollars invested in Y stock and the same amount of money or higher invested in the Bitshares prediction market of said stock because the prediction market offers you no real legal standing or ownership.  You can't compare real stock markets to this because the value proposition of the real stock market is always higher.  I'm not saying the market has no value, it's just nothing close to the real stock market.

I don't think you understand the state of legacy markets today.  The stock market is just a daisy chain of contractual obligations.  Some folks believe the backend is a house of cards ready to fall.  So for all intents and purposes, trading stocks directly is not much better than trading a derivative form of those stocks.  Bitshares has the potential to be a far superior platform for companies to issue stock on through user issued assets.

The bitasset market most closely resembles futures markets, which are bucket shops by your definition.  We should see some real fireworks once things such as gas, corn, wheat, sugar, soybean, and cocoa can be traded freely and fully collateralized by native sound money and even be used as currency.  These things are all traded digitally today anyway, so by definition they have to be derivatives. 

Think about this use case:  Joe travels 3,000 miles a month for his job and uses 100 gallons of gas each month.  He wants to budget for for his gas expenses for the entire year and right now gas prices are relatively cheap at $2.00/gallon.  Joe buys 1200 bitgas for $2400.  Joe will pay $2.00/gallon all year as he redeems bitgas every time he fills up his car.  If prices jump to $3.00/gallon, then joe will save money.  Perhaps in the future gas stations will accept bitgas directly. 

63
Technical Support / Re: bts1.0 min fee=0.1bts how about bts2.0?
« on: October 10, 2015, 01:26:13 pm »
Td ameritrade charges 2000 bts per trade... and that is just a basic buy or sell order.  Options and futures trades are higher.

64
General Discussion / Re: Meanwhile at Ripple
« on: October 09, 2015, 11:49:35 pm »
On the other hand, ripple looks pretty oversold short term to me. 

But of course, BTS is the place to be.

Agree on both counts.

65
General Discussion / Re: Meanwhile at Ripple
« on: October 09, 2015, 10:33:02 pm »
It's looks like they capitulated to the banks and ditched their own ledger for this ILP protocol, or at the very least their focus is now on ILP since they failed to get the banks on board the ripple protocol, so everyone is dumping, including me.  In the words of mark cuban, "If your premise is wrong, get out."

What? Aren't XRPs used to pay the fees? I think the only difference with BitShares is that their assets aren't backed by XRP for example, but by their own gateways. They still need to pay fees to make transactions and those will probably be paid in XRP



This doesn't sound good coming from a long time ripple dev.
Quote from: joelkatz
XRP will have all the use cases it had before, with the exception of transaction fees for transactions that people would prefer to do on private ledgers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Ripple/comments/3nqrlq/interledger_a_proposal_by_w3c_for_a_payment/


Quote
What about Bitcoin, Ripple and other so-called protocols for money? In reality, these are all just networks themselves.

We need a neutral protocol, like HTTP or SMTP, for payments on the Web that enables senders and receivers to each use different providers. It should not require a central operator, nor a globally accepted currency or blockchain. Anyone should be able to use the protocol without connecting to any core or official network.
http://interledger.org/


It looks to me like the banks are going to have full control or go down with the ship, meaning they will be going down with the ship as legacy banking is now obsolete.  I always saw ripple as a patch for the legacy banking system anyway and now it looks like ripple has failed to get them on board to use their protocol directly. 

66
General Discussion / Re: Meanwhile at Ripple
« on: October 09, 2015, 08:46:17 pm »
It's looks like they capitulated to the banks and ditched their own ledger for this ILP protocol, or at the very least their focus is now on ILP since they failed to get the banks on board the ripple protocol, so everyone is dumping, including me.  In the words of mark cuban, "If your premise is wrong, get out."

67
General Discussion / Re: Understanding Bitshares TPS bottlenecks?
« on: October 07, 2015, 03:55:26 pm »
Smooth tried to argue that a DEX is useless because it would be front run by HFT.  I think of it differently though.  HFT is the same thing as PoW.  You're expending resources to capture a finite revenue stream vs competitors (skimming).  The process eventually leads to either complete centralization (monopoly), or something very close to it.  Since HFT is a consensus of only one or a few parties, the DEX might be the market maker instead.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the big financial players in the real world (the HFT firms) have a disincentive to use a DEX because they lose their competitive advantage by doing so. They will always prefer the centralised alternative, so decreasing block times to suit them is pointless, especially at the detriment of other features.

HFTs derive their revenue from transactions made by all other traders and investors.  All other traders and investors have an incentive to move to the DEX because they will get to keep the small amount of money that was being skimmed by the HFTs.  As traditional traders and investors leave centralized exchanges, HFTs will have fewer and fewer users to feed off of, ending their business model.

68
General Discussion / Re: Bitcoin 100x less secure than commonly believed
« on: September 30, 2015, 08:27:39 pm »
So my point remains that until a solution is found and implemented negative mining remains a problem. 

And my point remains that this problem is probably lower on the priority scale right now.  Right now, if you really want to attack bitcoin, your best bet is to attempt to prevent raising the block size limit by spoofing core nodes, DDOSing XTnodes, and spreading fud about a blocksize limit increase.  Bitcoin is not going anywhere with just 3-4tx/sec even if lighting network, side chains, or any other scaling solutions are implemented.  So your attack is essentially free and the attackers seem to be doing a pretty good job so far.  You won't destroy bitcoin but you can prevent it from growing.  I would argue that the attackers are winning in bitcoin as we speak for neligible cost.

69
General Discussion / Re: Bitcoin 100x less secure than commonly believed
« on: September 30, 2015, 03:27:33 pm »
What are the chances that mining pools come up with a fix or workaround for the negative mining problem?  Also, I think your assumptions that price will drop solely because this attack is being attempted is flawed.  To get a guaranteed drop in price, you will have to be certain that your attack will prove catastrophic, or nearly catastrophic to the Bitcoin network, with very little possibility of recovery. 

IMO this is another one of your bad PR/FUD threads.  I could be wrong, but I think there is a good chance that the bitcoin community could find a solution to this avenue of attack.  I find it hard to believe that they would let a $3 bil industry go down the drain.  I think its a good idea to identify problems in the industry, but you should portray it as a possible attack vector that the bitcoin community may want to explore, instead of a guaranteed failure like this:

"Once someone develops a business plan that can benefit from gaining control of Bitcoin’s block production it will be done and no amount of hash power will be able to prevent it."

because there is no guarantee that this attack will work in practice.  It hasn't happened for bitcoin's nearly seven years in existence. 

70
General Discussion / Re: Best Selling Option
« on: September 28, 2015, 12:49:31 am »
Click this link and then re-write your post with a new solution that would prevent a government agency from taking it down:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Reserve

Its ridiculous to compare bitshares to a centralized custodial model such as liberty reserve. 


Quote
Nobody is going to invest in Bitshares if all a govt agency has to do is shut down this website to win.

They don't have to shut down this website to win.  They have to gain enough votes to control 51% of the network, and that will buy them a day or two, until the community clones the system and introduces a new chain with all the attacker's shares revoked.  It will be messy with some potential damage done, but the system will survive.

Quote
Any solution people suggest that involves asking Bytemaster to let them be a delegate is completely asinine.

Again, delegates have to gain shareholder approval, not Bytemaster approval.  I appreciate your concern and I think you have some viable ideas, but some things you are saying is borderline fud. 


I think you underestimate the importance of:
1) digital signatures
2) the ability of the system to clone/fork at will

The same goes for bitcoin, nxt, ethereum and even ripple.  The consensus mechanisms of these systems are sufficiently decentralized, with ripple being the most centralized, but most likely still sufficiently decentralized.  There is no need to find the holy grail of decentralization.  Sufficiently decentralized is good enough.  Of course this theory will be tested at higher levels of adoption and higher market caps, but I think it will hold.


Here are my thoughts on blockchain governance that I said a while back:

I like Mike Hearn's assessment of how blockchain governance works most efficiently and effectively.  Basically, you have one core group of guys, or even one leader in some cases, who make most of the decisions and everyone for the most part just goes along with it and gives their input here and there.  However, blockchain governance gives us one, last-resort, fail-safe measure to override the decisions of those core developers if we have to.  In the case of bitcoin, there is a network of miners who can override the decisions of the core devs if need be and in bitshares the stakeholders have the power to override the decisions of the core devs, which is more efficient.

I like to think of it as insurance - it's something you purchase but hope you never have to use.  Hopefully the tree out in my front yard never falls on my car but I'm going to buy insurance just in case it does and if by chance a huge storm comes up and blows that tree over on my car, then I will use my insurance to protect myself financially.  It will be a big inconvenience and something I didn't want to have to do in the first place, but at least I was protected. 

Same goes for bitshares.  As a shareholder I would rather just vote for BM & Co to run the show.  They created this project and got it to where it is today, so i dont see any better alternative.  I probably won't change my vote for every little change that needs to be made or new feature that needs to be added.  However, if the core devs attempt to completely compromise the system for any reason, then I can use my "insurance" to override their decisions along with all other stakeholders.  It will be a huge inconvenience to figure out what is going on and how best to use my vote to protect the integrity of the system - and it will likely be ugly and get a little messy, but at least I am protected just in case and we as shareholders can prevent the destruction of the system by a small group of people.  However, hopefully things go along business-as-usual and I don't have to take any action.

tl;dr  I don't see voter apathy as a big problem, but voters who do not vote for a proxy should have votes expire or decay over time.  Most of us will probably just vote for a proxy that goes along with cnx and the vision of bitshares and only use our voting power if serious issues arise.  That will be the most efficient and effective way to run this blockchain.


71
General Discussion / Re: Bitshares price discussion
« on: September 27, 2015, 01:03:18 am »
BTS looking more and more bullish with every short term higher high and higher low.  WE'll break 2800 soon adn the start rocketing I think.
Maybe... but should never go against the grain which is up since we know a new release is coming and theres interest. To me doesnt make sense to try to trade minor swings because it will be net negative if you happen to miss big moves.

Making 2% a week short term trading bts will make you more money than holding bts ever could.  People get too focused on hitting home runs that go up 10x.  There is a reason compound interest was called the eight wonder of the world.

Negative.  You won't get the swings right consistently.  Not on a single asset anyway.  Your best bet is to hold for not just a 10x, but 100x or 1000x+ gain.  Sell a very small portion of your stash here and there on the way up and if you are lucky you may get to buy back at a cheaper price.  Of course it's kind of a long shot whether we see those gains or not, but Bitshares has the best potential of anything I see out there.  For those who weren't vested in the 2013 bitcoin bull market, it was a bad idea to sell because you may never see those prices again, especially during the spring bull, and it happened very quickly.  If Ander's call for a third wave is correct, then bitshares will see something very similar at some point.

72
General Discussion / Re: Best Selling Option
« on: September 25, 2015, 03:09:10 am »
People LOVE the idea of having 10000 potential block producers with no barrier to entry.  But what this really means is that people love having the ILLUSION of direct control.

BitShares is supposed to be an exchange, so what people love is having all their trading needs fulfilled. If you go to the polo troll box no one cares how many block producers there are. What they care about is this:
-Liquidity
-Variety of markets accessible in one place
-Lending for shorting
-Talking to the community of traders (troll box)
-Beautiful trading GUI

We dont yet have any of those things.

Exactly.  Regular users won't get caught up in the nuts and bolts of how and why bitshares is more secure than a centralized exchange.  They will know that the platform they are using runs on the bitshares protocol, therefore it is secure.  Much like users look for the s on the end of http to know that the connection they have established is secure.  They don't know why it is secure, they just know that all the experts say it is secure so they use it.  The same will be true of bitshares, so the ones that need to be convinced first are the experts. 

Also, decentralization is only part of the security model.  Quoting Satoshi, "Digital signatures provide part of the solution."  Also, the ability to clone and fork at any point in time provides a certain level of security.  So I am in the camp of fewer witnesses, at least at this stage, as I see more witnesses as costing more than they are worth.

73
General Discussion / Re: Best Selling Option
« on: September 25, 2015, 02:42:35 am »
@r0ach

The tradeoff with your approach is electing block producers solely because they are putting up the largest stake vs electing block producers that are most trusted by stakeholders, especially if larger stake-holding candidates are elected by default unless the user manually changes the vote.  Some of the most trusted candidates may not have the largest stake.  I like users having no vote by default and having to manually change their vote.  This also works to reduce the effects of voter apathy because those who are most involved in the system and have the largest stake will make sure to vote.

Anyway, I don't think the cost/benefit of implementing your suggestion would be worth it at this point.  What are the chances of a failure directly resulting from not implementing your solution vs the chances of failure if your solution were to actually be implemented.  I don't think its going to make a difference at this stage.  Perhaps it is something that can be explored at higher levels of adoption once the chain becomes profitable and there is plenty of money in the coffers to explore such a solution.  At this point, the current solution is probably sufficiently decentralized for this stage in the game. 


74
General Discussion / Re: Decentralization of Power
« on: September 24, 2015, 03:06:31 am »
I agree that too much decentralization is wasteful and can erode performance.  The question I would like to ask is:  What is the goal of security through decentralization?  As BM stated, there are many variables that factor into security and security means different things to different people, but IMO the most important part of this aspect of security is simple:  protect user assets from being stolen.  Whether through direct theft of assets, inflation of the native asset (bts), manipulation of price feeds, ect.  Most all attack vectors revolve around stealing user assets or making their assets worthless.  I would argue that much of this has been solved through cryptography and giving witnesses as little privileges as possible and giving delegates delayed privileges to give users a chance to vote out bad delegates. 

It would be nice to see, if possible, what percentage of votes cast are via unique proxy (slate) to determine true decentralization of the network.  If, for example, >50% of votes are cast via 17 unique proxies, then It may not be advantageous to have more than 17 geographically distributed witnesses at current adoption levels.  As long as the network is sufficiently decentralized to protect user assets, then it works, and perception should not be a concern for something that works just as efficiently or more efficiently than its competitors.

75
General Discussion / Re: Initial Witness Pay & Number of Witnesses
« on: September 22, 2015, 02:52:45 am »
17 should be plenty to begin with.  Even fewer than that would probably work at the beginning stages as long as they are sufficiently geographically distributed.  As Ander said, pay projections should allow for a drop in market cap, perhaps back to previous levels near 1400 sat just to be safe.

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