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Messages - teenagecheese

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91
There's some great ideas in here for sure.  I'd like to see if Cass could add in that code once the "New BitShares" is ready for it's close up so we can have a better idea about our traffic.  To be very brief and to the point about what's next for our sites, it's this:

Take down bitshares-x.info site and redirect all traffic to bitshares.org
Retain only the one site (bitshares.org) as the official informational site
Redesign this site to reflect a MUCH simpler, easy to understand business model and value prop
Target all the benefits of BitShares in relation to "banking" and personal financial services
Target also "merchants" for business financial services
Make bitshares.org a source to download the new BitShares client
Make the message clear, simple, compelling, and did I say simple?

This is just an overview, but you get the idea.... all in progress now. 
B

I think this is great, but I am slightly confused when you say, target all benefits of BitShares to "banking."

What is the future DNS and the like? Will they be integrated later and are just too much for now? I thought that was part of the super DAC. Serious question, not meant to be rude.

92
General Discussion / Re: Should we kill the DACronym?
« on: November 10, 2014, 05:55:08 pm »
Decentralized Blockchain Application Platform (DBAP).

...probably will just be referred to as a BAP in common usage, decentralized being a specific descriptor of the general concept of a BAP

93
General Discussion / Re: Why bitAssets are like "keys" to a "vault"
« on: November 10, 2014, 05:19:45 am »
Great analogy. You're final comment made me think:

Could advanced trading features such as an automatically updating, one time fee, "sell at peg price" option be implemented?

This, in particular, would help strengthen the peg I think.

Edit: I suppose maybe that was an ignorant comment and this type of thing is already in the works, or at least planned.
Good idea but actually its difficult because of lags in the feed.
See here:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9861.msg128211#msg128211

Hmm, well I hope it can be figured out somehow. I would say a custom scrypt would be good enough (even though that is not user friendly which is also very important), but that would still cost a lot in fees, as you said.

94
General Discussion / Re: Why bitAssets are like "keys" to a "vault"
« on: November 10, 2014, 04:52:02 am »
Great analogy. Your final comment made me think:

Could advanced trading features such as an automatically updating, one time fee, "sell at peg price" option be implemented?

This, in particular, would help strengthen the peg I think.

Edit: I suppose maybe that was an ignorant comment and this type of thing is already in the works, or at least planned.

95
If you are going to do this I am curious about how it would be able to support it own delegates on its own chain. I guess there could be less and they could be only part time (low pay)? Maybe just make it regular POS?

96
Alphabar, yes it does hurt BTS. We just bought out people who had PTS with the assumption that BTS would take on it's responsibilities. If you make this new PTS they'll sell their BTS and buy that, which is TAKING MONEY FROM BTS.

At the very least don't call it PTS. You are making a new product which is not the original PTS. Call it AlphaShares maybe.

It is not a new DAC, it is an upgrade to PTS. Your example of selling one to buy another is completely unfounded because it assumes that the two products are interchangable when they are actually completely different. Why would somebody who values profitability and features see any value in PTS??? See the differences I explained above. You are wrong for the same reason that protectionism and isolationism is wrong. We are not taking from others' share of the pie - WE ARE GROWING THE PIE. ;)

Okay I think I see the reason to have a coin for people to sharedrop to, but if someone is going to sharedrop something that works with bitshares (not a competitior) than it should be sharedroped to BTS because BTS bought out PTS and now holds that value.

If, like you say, someone want a place to sharedrop to bitshares competitors, then maybe your coin has value. BUT, you need to change the name. You need to make this clear. Taking the PTS name will probably actually not only confuse people and hurt BTS, but also hurt your coin's image because of all the original PTS media still on the web. It will be hard to shed that.

Part of the reason I didn't like this so much is that I didn't understand precisely because you called it PTS. You're making a whole new entity with a NEW function. Call it something else.

97
Alphabar, yes it does hurt BTS. We just bought out people who had PTS with the assumption that BTS would take on it's responsibilities. If you make this new PTS they'll sell their BTS and buy that, which is TAKING MONEY FROM BTS.

At the very least don't call it PTS. You are making a new product which is not the original PTS. Call it AlphaShares maybe.

98
DO NOT DO THIS!

1. PTS was given shares in BTS. If it still lives we all just lost value in BTS for no reason
2. To reach a wide audience, as many our saying, new projects can still sharedrop on BTS
3. If people want stake in a specific new DAC they can either get it through a sharedrop on BTS or by investing in whatever the earliest mechanism the devs allow (e.g., fundraiser, etherium-style, placeholder coin, etc.) It will still be effectively the same concept because everyone will have the investment opportunity at the same time. If the devs don't allow for "early adopters" it will be because they did not want to. If they want to allow an early adopter mechanism, they still can.
4. This will confuse everyone even further. Just let it go, keep the ecosystem simple. PLEASE. You are going to hurt BTS if you do this.

I hope people either support me on this or give a good reason why I'm wrong.

99

Shares in a company are, literally, issuing of company equity in order to grow.

Every single publically traded company in the world has issued stock in order to get money in order to grow.  Thats what stock is.
Tons of companies continually issue more stock every year in order to fuel growth.  Every company in the world that gives its employees stock options or stock is inflating its share supply in order to hire talent, in order to grow.

An increasing share supply is the *normal* state of companies.  Normal, every day companies that you see listed on the stock exchanges.



That said, yes, of course we would like for the supply of bitshares to eventually be shrinking!  Most companies would love to reach a state where they are able to buy back more shares than they issue, and reduce share counts overtime.  This is the goal once we become big, and the amount of dilution needed to grow is small because the market cap is big, and shares are being burned due to transaction fees, etc.  We want to reach that point eventually.  But for now, it is better to inflate a little to grow fast, than to not inflate and grow slowly or not be able to pay for developers.

Interesting, I was not aware companies regularly took share issuance to that extent. Either way, I feel good about this now after both your and Troglodactyl's comments. Thanks

100

I suspect that fees will outpace dilution well before the end of the rapid growth phase.  There will be a lot of ecosystem growth from peripheral businesses that are self funding without dilution, like gateways.

Bitcoin doesn't have the feature set to reach a wide market, but looking at its growth dynamics with the businesses that have sprung up around it is encouraging.

Great point! Now we wait and see I guess.

101
Edit: Troglodactyl, just read your post, I think we agree.

I think what you're saying is only right during the growth phase of the company, while you are still attracting new users. It's sort of like a ponzi scheme; it doesn't work if you don't keep having new people (money) come. Once this is a steady-state ecosystem inflation will simply be draining people's money because the share price is not rising enough to counteract it. I can't help but thinking I'm right because no real company operates on an inflation model. Investors want money from customers, not themselves. They want to maximize profit.

...With that said, I suppose at that steady-state point we don't need many marketers/devs/janitors etc., and we will be able to maintain the network with just transaction fees.

102
All this is great, but I feel like for shares in a company, inflation (dilution) is only successful as a short term solution. Continuous inflation may be okay for a currency (which is a whole other conversation), but is it sustainable for a company?

I would hope that ultimately everything can be paid for via transaction fees or some other mechanism. That's what VISA and Mastercard do, right? How else do they make money? I wonder what transaction volume this would require.

103
General Discussion / Re: Draft Pitch for new BitShares.org
« on: November 07, 2014, 02:27:17 pm »
I agree!! That page is slick, but just too vague because most people have no idea how digital currencies work and definitely no idea how bitshares works.

I feel most other people's comments above are pretty accurate as well and should be addressed.

We definitely need a new website though, gotta re-brand entirely. This our one and only shot to start clean. Get rid of the old one's and make one, clean, integrated, OFFICIAL, website

104
A block signer can be appointed and paid by a delegate and can be fired/reassigned at any time by a delegate. 

Thats just unnecessary distraction for the delegate, who may not be the best in choosing the correct block signer. If the delegate has a skill set which would be useful, let him just do that, no need to make him seek out an able block signer and outsource.

Another advantage for separation would be that there won't be a limit of the pay or the number of employees, giving better flexibility. It also will allow for short bounty style payments, which would case quite a upheaval in the  current model as a delegate comes and leaves for a short period.

What part of we cannot have shares vote for more than 101 *THINGS* because it does not scale.  So saying that there won't be a limit on employees or pay is wrong.  We need to limit pay to prevent unbounded dilution and we need to limit funded positions because of transaction processing time and size.

Basically if we go with what you are proposing we will end up with 101 small companies formed around delegates. So someone has to join one of these companies or start their own (which will be really hard once the others are established) to work for BitShares. A marketer or whoever should be allowed to focus only on their task and be able to do it independently because that will allow for the most people to contribute. That's also the most decentralized.

The issues you bring up about transaction time and size can easily be solved as well. Still have 101 regular delegates, where things happen every 5-10 seconds, but then have your unlimited number of employee delegates who are maybe checked by the network once a day for voting and performance and such. They don't have to be in every block because they're not signing transactions.

Also, do you really think this will make a problem with max dilution? No, it won't, only people that are needed will be paid and if it is too much pay they won't be elected, maybe we'll only have ~10 employees to start. The voters decide max dilution and how many people are employed and at what rate. In addition, dilution shouldn't even be present most of the time because this is a company and it should be able to earn enough profit (from transaction fees or whatever other income we can think of) to sustain itself.

Before I finish, the only issues I can see with what I'm saying is that this would be a lot of people for users to vote for and keep track of. for that reason, SOME, of the employee delegates would need to be formed in companies (like the marketing group 1,2,3). Still individual employee delegate should be able to exist and no employee delegate, alone or in a group, should have to work with a network delegate. There's just no point. Its unnecessary complication. Make this thing EFFICIENT AND LOGICAL.

105
General Discussion / Re: BTS will dilute maximum 10% per year?
« on: October 31, 2014, 05:25:58 am »
If Bitshares were a currency, I would not be o.k. with this dilution. But since Bitshares is not a currency as is more like a company, I am o.k. with it.

I think people who are not o.k. with it probably still see it as a currency. Gotta make sure the distinction is made clear and obvious

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