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Crash the price.that's what u want.Good job,bytemaster!You made it!
Why would we think an upgraded version of momentum wouldn't be minable by cloud or botnets? Has any actual innovation been made, I must have missed it
I think Lighthouse may have something workable.
10% for PTS
10% for Angels
80% Undefined???
What happens to the 80% when they launch BitShares?
tldr; Momentum 2.0 was released today in MemoryCoin v2. So basically its ready to go now.Why would we think an upgraded version of momentum wouldn't be minable by cloud or botnets? Has any actual innovation been made, I must have missed it
Lets see what Invictus has proposed:
Decentralized Mining - The Future of BitShares Mining
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=905.msg9065#msg9065
Attempted to decentralize pools with lottery mining that makes mining for profit a non-starter and attempts to encourage solo mining.
Momentum 2.0
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=962.msg9752#msg9752
Attempts to fix Momentum 1.0 which had problems with GPU miners gaining a 3x advantage. MemoryCoin borrowed some of these ideas.
Decentralized Autonomous Countries
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1396.msg14762#msg14762
Points out all of the flaws of mining and the implicit centralization. Even PTS is centralized in 3 pools right now, 1 of which may even have over 51%. Anyone committed to decentralization would have to drop mining based upon this alone. Anyone clamoring for mining must be selfish and not looking at the big picture that a little profit today will end up controlled at the end of the day. Those that don't want the rich to buy it up seem to ignore that mining does not prevent the rich, but helps them cement control.
Transactions as Proof-of-Stake & the End of Mining
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1138.msg11955#msg11955
Introduces a new system of proof-of-stake that bytemaster claims is more secure than mining.
From where I sit this looks like a ton of innovative ideas and real attempts to encourage decentralization and favor the little guy; a true commitment to decentralization above all else.
This guy is like Ron Paul, good ideas, uncompromising, but terrible at delivery. If you want him to be able to hire people to make up for his flaws then he will need money.
I think Lighthouse may have something workable.
10% for PTS
10% for Angels
80% Undefined???
What happens to the 80% when they launch BitShares?
By the way if you have Protoshares you can import you wallet for MemoryCoin right now.
Link?
Sorry, didn't you read the white paper the put out a couple of weeks ago. http://the-iland.net/static/downloads/TransactionsAsProofOfStake.pdf
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1138.0
I've read lots and lots of whitepapers including this one.
Well this escalated quickly....i'll read the 7 new pages when I get home but I can only assume this idea is dead in the water now
off-topic...but this thread is heated. sometimes its good to remember why we are all here...
And we all know why...but sometimes we need a reminder. Hope this finds you all well. I'm holding and buying, because I believe in this community. F not believing...the only time to not believe is when people stop caring. Obviously, that is not the case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf8Fwiy0Bkc
Peace and Love to all you guys. You have become a family to me.
Link?
Why would we think an upgraded version of momentum wouldn't be minable by cloud or botnets? Has any actual innovation been made, I must have missed it
The money I've made just over the past year from people dumping... I'll buy a bunch of PTS when the exchanges come back on.
Your here in the first place because Bytemaster had controversial ideas. Note that this idea comes more from the fatal centralization and algorithmic issues in Proof-of-Work than raising money. This is pretty hard to convince anyone unless they have read and understand the Bitcoin whitepaper, or had a coin they had significant value in die because of a network attack.
Here is my suggestion:
15% stake in Protoshares V2 which is a hybrid Proof-of-Work/Proof-of-Stake. This honors the original social contact to the community and the miners, plus a bonus. Also shorten the re-target time, and perhaps use the new version of momentum. Protoshares can laugh as botnets start to have a bad day, miners will be happy as they don't get squeezed. Current investors can now earn "dividends" even before the BitShares release. Also makes us resistant to 51% attacks.
Bytemaster can up with a next gen Proof-of-Stake system, so I'm talking with the creator of Proof-of-Stake to see what he says. I think the 5+ crypto-currencies will proof-of-stake will implement it. Its that good. It's kind of funny that everything we come up with here has major implications on the entire cryptocurrency world.
15% sake in AngelShares. Why do we need AngelShares? Simple if want a talented C++ developer making an average of $89,280(2011), we need to at least match that to get he/she to drop what they are doing. Byte estimated that around $1 million is currently being spend on mining right now. Unless you have a rig(I do), I'd much rather those funds to go development than Amazon EC2. So if we were to make similar numbers on AngelShares we could pretty much double the company overnight.
tldr; Hybrid Proof-of-Stake/Proof-of-Work is probably good for everyone. AngleShares good because it speeds things up.
tldr2; Will offer 1 PTS if someone can find a fatal flaw in my argument.
Note that hybrid will take much more time. I say we keep Protoshares as it is, then release the upgraded Protoshares after we get Keyotee out.
QuoteYour greed is pushing you to try to combine two things. You want to move to proof-of-stake mining because you learned it is more practical for DACs. The problem is you are now trying to change the social contract for ProtoShares to increase the ownership that you felt you missed out on. In the process, you are undermining all PTS value to investors and encouraging centralization of power. In just one evening I've gone from one of your biggest supporters to thinking I want out entirely. I recall how you gleefully told another investor how their departure means cheaper shares for you, so don't bother. Your primary concern was obvious then, and I should have trusted my instincts. I'll review further before making such a rash decision.
First of all I thing this was just a idea that Bytemaster proposed and by no means a final decision, in fact he clearly stated and the name of the topic is : Feedback Request. Ultimately I thing everybody wants the project to succeed. So before accusing Bytmaster of greed or else. There are some obvious things that are not right and bytemaster is trying to solve. The bootents and the chinese super computer. Those guys they don't give a shit about protoshare they are in short term for the money, and if we let them be, they gonna take the big part of every pie that they can get there hands on, be it DAC, Bitshare or else. Don't get me wrong we all hopping to make some money of course but at least we are trying to do something about it like arguing in this forum, or trying already to build a DAC like WETube for example. Botnets , for them, all this is just money out of thin air nothing more.
What Invictus proposed is something that potentially could change the cryptoworld or even the way we do business as we know it. In order to succeed the project needs programmers, needs marketing, needs people to believe and be involved, for all of that the project needs money the more the better.
Now let's not forget that Invictus said, if need be, there will be a Protoshare 2.0, so it is not breach of contract IF Protoshare 2.0 will be forked IF is solving obvious problems and this with the consensus of everybody and in a way that is still very interesting for new investors. I mean I'm not saying that we should change everything but this project it is very young still, so if there are thing to be fixed this is the time to do it of course we need sound reasons and be completely transparent about it.
So should be a good ideea to find a better way to address those needs instead of accusing or even worst threatening to dump protoshares, anyhow those that are dumping right know they are in for short term so they may as well do whatever and get the hell out of this project we don't need them.
Well, it appears that the company is pivoting. I'm holding all my PTS and telling my friends to buy.
Now that I've slept on it. I think Protoshare holders should get what was promised in the social contract, which is 10%. Angel shares can then get the other 90%. The new investment will benefit Protoshare holders greatly because the money for Angel shares will fuel development and growth. We'd also be more competitive with Mastercoin and Ripple.
Completely agree - We need to raise capital to speed up operations
Thanks. I don't think people understand that Invictus has strong competition. They risk being left in the dust. Angel Shares will provide value to Protoshares because it will be the vehicle that accelerates development.
As far as I can see, though, it may be most important to be first to the DAB/P2P DAC -- I wonder if bytemaster has any ideas for getting to market faster, in that regard. Raising capital for the DAC's to follow would be easy if BitShare were released today.
If Bitshares were released today the program would crash. Now, Invictus has an amazing lineup of coders. However, these are very difficult programs to make. And what about security. If we want the most secure products out there, we really need more eyes on the problem. And that's what we're talking about. Waiting 5 years for each DAC or getting 2 or 3 out a year. I want the 2 0r 3 a year!
It does not take 2-3 years to release a DAC. It depends on how ambitious the DAC is of course. Bitshares could really take a few years with the giant feature set it is supposed to have but it doesn't have to take that long.
The case has been made that angel investment is critical to the success of the overall project. The question is how can we do it without upsetting or disrupting Protoshare holders. And if we are going for a buy your way in Proof of Stake strategy then what about the people who aren't investors? As long as the investment money circulates then it would work but right now we don't know what would happen because a detailed plan has not been laid out.
How much money is needed? How many programmers? Will there be giveaways and contests for everyone else so the money isn't given just to the chosen few?
Work out these issues and then a compromise solution can be reached where the social contract remains the same but everyone gets some win.
Mastercoin is getting million pumped into them. It's just really hard to see how Invictus can compete with that. Also, the social contract isn't being broken. Only the people who thought they'd be able to mine Bitshares are upset and they are hoping to get something for nothing. Things are moving so fast in this space that we can't wait 2 or 3 years. If we knew only two months ago what we know now, things would be crazy different. That's how fast things are moving--only 2 months. There's really no choice but to light a fire and charge ahead.
I'm involved with Mastercoin and Bitshares. The problem you have is you think that they are competitors when in reality they don't really compete with each other as much as they compete with Wall Street, the NASDAQ, Forex, Dow, banks and so on.
Mastercoin and Bitshares are in it together in the long term and this concern about how Mastercoin has raised millions of dollars is stupid. Let's say Mastercoin raises millions and they give a job or two to me and I earn some money which I go and use to buy Protoshares or become an angel investor. Do you see now how it works?
Let's say you work for Intel, or you make mining rigs for a living so in your day job you're selling rigs so people can mine Protoshares telling them that the price will go way up even if they mine at a loss. You used to just make computers, now you make mining rigs and market Protoshares. If mining is removed now you've lost all that potential income which you could have used to buy more Protoshares or invest as an angel investor.
This is not like corporations in the real world which have to compete because the law says they must profit. These are DACs which have the same agenda and where the primary opposition will be from regulatory strangulation and competition from the real world stock exchanges.
Money will come to Bitshares as it comes to Mastercoin and money will come to Mastercoin as it comes to Bitshares. Nothing stops Mastercoin from hosting PTS or PTS and trades for MSC to PTS.
I'm with Que on this one. Miners efforts are wasted outside the system. Your paying expenses to your ulility company and amazon. If you really invested money for mining protoshares, I think that was ill-advised because there has numerous discussions here that Invictus was looking for a PoS-- which seeks to limit mining. Mining is wasteful. Its wasteful here. And really would miners promote a currency? I doubt it. That's a myth. Once miners get their coins, they would dump them on the market once they see a good opening. If you really want to get involved in PTS, but with mining its thats so important, then mine another currency, exchange it and get some PTS. Then convert those PTS to PTS 2.
you ruined the PTS.price is going down.sucker
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Well, it appears that the company is pivoting. I'm holding all my PTS and telling my friends to buy.
Now that I've slept on it. I think Protoshare holders should get what was promised in the social contract, which is 10%. Angel shares can then get the other 90%. The new investment will benefit Protoshare holders greatly because the money for Angel shares will fuel development and growth. We'd also be more competitive with Mastercoin and Ripple.
Completely agree - We need to raise capital to speed up operations
Thanks. I don't think people understand that Invictus has strong competition. They risk being left in the dust. Angel Shares will provide value to Protoshares because it will be the vehicle that accelerates development.
As far as I can see, though, it may be most important to be first to the DAB/P2P DAC -- I wonder if bytemaster has any ideas for getting to market faster, in that regard. Raising capital for the DAC's to follow would be easy if BitShare were released today.
If Bitshares were released today the program would crash. Now, Invictus has an amazing lineup of coders. However, these are very difficult programs to make. And what about security. If we want the most secure products out there, we really need more eyes on the problem. And that's what we're talking about. Waiting 5 years for each DAC or getting 2 or 3 out a year. I want the 2 0r 3 a year!
It does not take 2-3 years to release a DAC. It depends on how ambitious the DAC is of course. Bitshares could really take a few years with the giant feature set it is supposed to have but it doesn't have to take that long.
The case has been made that angel investment is critical to the success of the overall project. The question is how can we do it without upsetting or disrupting Protoshare holders. And if we are going for a buy your way in Proof of Stake strategy then what about the people who aren't investors? As long as the investment money circulates then it would work but right now we don't know what would happen because a detailed plan has not been laid out.
How much money is needed? How many programmers? Will there be giveaways and contests for everyone else so the money isn't given just to the chosen few?
Work out these issues and then a compromise solution can be reached where the social contract remains the same but everyone gets some win.
