again, really interesting project - I love the innovation throughout!

I may have missed you answering these, but I have some questions just to make sure my understanding is clear:
When bunkershares are redeemed for services, they are removed from the market? So the discount for new customers, in theory, decreases over time until no bunkershares are left?
Have you published how much of a discount each share is worth?

Good questions! 

When BunkerShares are redeemed for service they are bought back into our asset and effectively removed from the market until they are repurchased at retail rate, vs. the presale. So the supply will diminish at a rate greater than the sales most likely.

At the retail rate the % of discount is not huge, but it's there. Eventually when all the shares sold in the presale are redeemed/brought back this will effectively end the deep discount cycle. You are right, the discount could decrease over time if they had not prepurchased their shares at the presale discount rate, or bought them on the open market at whatever rate presale buyers are selling it for. It's not a lock, it's a voucher.

Once all the presale shares have been redeemed, which is a fraction of our total revenue projections over the next two years, we will quite possibly do a 2.0 offer if this one was met with success. Again, "possibly" and "if". We can only assess that once we can look back from a little further ahead.

Initial funds for this presale are significant compared to most offerings, but we have a capacity for $230 million annually that would require an additional $80 million give or take in more equipment. Not IMMEDIATELY, but of course gives you an idea of how much more investment there is to be made, and room for additional opportunities.

If we find this toll-booth voucher model to be an effective balance of having issued share vouchers with propagated growth and increase our rate of retention while successfully keeping in line with our COGS.. then I see no reason not to do another round that likely will be much larger and more competitive since a majority of it would be directed primarily at the COGS instead of the capital expenditures towards improvements that this one requires.

It's published all over the place that the discount would amount to as much as 65% over current market priced commodity services like virtual servers, dedicated, and shared hosting for example.

There is a sliding scale we use depending on what Scenario we get into in the sale. The further we go in the sale the higher the discount rate can be afforded. Each Scenario has a sliding scale that is impacted by the presale and how much COGS and CAPEX needs to be done in order to deliver on services. If we are for example in the Scenario 0-1 arena, our COGS are higher and our range of product offering limited and therefore our ability to redeem at a higher rate reduced.

I will be getting a bit more into how that works in upcoming webinars where I will be reviewing various topics on this offering and will be having a question and answer as well. I hope what I just described answers your question though.

Sounds good to me since it removes a friction point in the process. I like it.

That's right! Essentially to use the toll-booth analogy further.. in the old process, we were forcing drivers to get out of their cars to go into the booth to buy their bunkershares from holders to be able to receive their discounts and then move on through the toll-booth to the open highway.

In the new process, they will have an EZPass lane built in that will simply give them the deduction on the spot, and incentivize them to buy as much as possible to lock in the lower rate.

This does two things on the front and back end.

Front - Potential new signups and/or existing customers needing to get new products be they domains, ssls, cloud storage, cloud servers, support contracts, IP addresses, shared hosting, or whatever other digital offerings will be drawn by the discount of the day to be applied to their purchase seamlessly without even needing to search for coupon codes! (though we might still put them out there as 'codes of the day' to hook into the marketing of coupon perception).

Backend - Bunkershare holders who want a faster return on the sale of their shares will now have a frictionless buyer at the payment gateway level of the data center to have the buy take place on every transaction.

The Win-Win-Win

For the Bunker - Higher odds of selling more bunkershares during presale.. ongoing customer acquisition and increased cash flow at a faster pace than previously planned.

For the Customer - Instant discounts on their purchases that they can apply either to their month of service, or annually.

For the BunkerShares Holder - A buy market where you can set your sell at whatever rate you wish depending on your term plans for returns. Those seeking a short term play can set their rate of return lower and place their BunkerShares at the front line of the market to be sold off quickly, while those in it for the longer term can set it higher and wait until the market sells out to them later on down the road and they sell at a higher rate of return.

Either way, this means when the 50 day presale starts, you REALLY want to get in on the first 20 days to get the $0.15 rate!

I am excited about this.. it makes understanding the offer easier.. though I realize in words alone it is difficult to conceptualize... I am going to whiteboard this into a video perhaps that can convey the process and concept in probably under a minute.

Quote from: fuzzy on April 26, 2015, 11:51:51 am

Quote from: DataSecurityNode on April 26, 2015, 09:02:42 am

Quote from: svk on April 26, 2015, 08:18:25 am

Quote from: bitscape on April 26, 2015, 07:36:36 am

Quote from: CLains on April 25, 2015, 10:42:37 pm

delegate pay, referral system, devs seeking funding from entrepeneurs, bitAssets AND bitAssets 3.0 can all co-exist.

CLains with the essence of it all in 16 words. 

Removing something that works, albeit imperfectly, for something that is completely unproven is not a good idea. Start out with a hybrid system, then if the referral thing works out well we can eventually all migrate to that. We need incremental changes, building on what already exists, not sweeping changes that throw out the old for new shinies.

 

In my model you don't even need to 'shift' anything.. the delegates support the proposed 'toll roads' and serve to provide policy oversight and enforcement. This doesn't mean delegates have to remain as is.. I am all for improvements to the way delegates are handled also.. but the baby with the bathwater proposal is or was not received or perceived as an improvement but an upheaval.

We haven't seen the proposal.. but I certainly hope it is just that.. a proposal.. and I hope it can consider changes.. like my suggested adoption of a hybrid refer system integrated into UIAs with delegate oversight.. this to me utilizing all our core capacities to bring in something good.

I TOTALLY GET the incentive of transaction fees.. TOTALLY.. it just needs all the right pieces implimented to make it work right.. BM did say in the course of the meeting the idea of stability and neutrality.. after discussion with at least one core dev though.. I have the impression there won't be sweeping changes to delegates like the mumble session might have suggested.

UIA gateways for user refer fees with delegate vote capacity based on anti-spam mandate to freeze bad neighbourhood UIAs is the way I think it could/should go in an effective way to gain mass adoption and protect the brand/tech.

Changes to delegates is another discussion.

This ^ is why I am GLAD bytemaster is open about these things and discusses them with us.  Because rather than complain, data just came up with a happy medium proposal that we can try without significantly changing anything.
It is THIS ^ that makes bitshares amazing...our citizens have the power to do far more than just complain.  We can actually propose and use solutions dynamically.

As for unnecessary politics...well the only way you get rid of that is to make us all automatons connected to the borg mothership..and that is just no fun... 

4 100% delegates agree with maintaining 100% delegates, hardly surprising.

That's an inaccurate assessment of what has been agreed on this far.. but as far as having 100% delegates go the entire community voted on it.

Quote from: DataSecurityNode on April 26, 2015, 04:00:31 am

[the referral program leaves] the door open to the snakes.. they come in.. affiliate networks and CPA networks deal with these sort of things ALL the time.. accounts get banned ALL the time for breaking policies they set for what types of marketing activities are acceptable and which are not... if they don't walk that fine line.. those affiliate networks become 'bad neighbourhoods' .. and eventually.. any links that lead to their systems.. become banned in major social networks.

Good point. This is like a tragedy of the commons for reputation. Solution?

Quote from: DataSecurityNode on April 26, 2015, 09:02:42 am

UIA gateways for user refer fees with delegate vote capacity based on anti-spam mandate to freeze bad neighbourhood UIAs is the way I think it could/should go in an effective way to gain mass adoption and protect the brand/tech.

Is this the best solution? Is it all-encompassing of the problem? Could we have several solutions?

I am all for more solutions being proposed that addresses all he issues.. I just came up with this in the course of chatting in the market channel about the issues.

I think we will see more once we see what Dan and i3 had in mind during the mumble session.. because then we can actually take aim at what is really being proposed. I know of at least a few people who are waiting in the wings to even say anything about this until they see it.

I shared this in the marketing channel and feel compelled to share it here as well to see how you all might feel about the way I think this could/should work.. along side my concerns for a trustless blockchain based refer system and why it will mean the end of the bitshares brand (not to be too dramatic or anything )

datasecuritynode
there are serious issues with this refer program model too.. how is governance over this program going to be accomplished.. if it is not run  like other affiliate programs.. bitshares is going to be the next payment option of choice for all virus and malware makers.. and every SPAMMER in the world is going to continue to spam bitshares everywhere completely unchecked with no consequence

datasecuritynode [9:32 AM]
resulting ultimately in turning bitshares into a bad community.. getting added to the DBLs.. and never being able to post a link to bitshares in any social platform

it needs governance.. I know this from knowing the industry..

datasecuritynode [9:35 AM]
the way to stop the behaviour is cutting off the income source

they just need offers.. most offers shut them down and they dont get paid once they see how it is being done.. but in bitshares.. with no governance.. they can continue bad bahaviour without consequence and keep making moeny.. if I can get just 0.1% of my 200 million email list.. and keep making money from that for the natural life of the end user.. I will be pissing rainbows

datasecuritynode [9:42 AM]
the delegate mechanism gives the people control over who gets funds.. so if someone was doing something like that the way it is now.. they would just get voted out... incentive gone

datasecuritynode [9:43 AM]
in an affiliate network.. there is no oversight over everyone.. there is nothing to vote out

stan [8:28 PM]
RE SPAM:  The leading referral concept offers referrers a vesting slice of the lifetime fees paid by each user they sign up ...as those fees are paid.  No point in signing up sock puppets that won't pay.  You are rewarded with transferrable revenue streams, not a cash payment.

fox [11:07 PM]
I for one am skeptical.  Something feels misaligned from BM's original ambition.

datasecuritynode [11:47 PM]
@stan RE SPAM: Yes.. that's what I understood.. bitcoin is the payment of choice for these bad players and some spammers because of its finality in transactions.. however.. a spammer (and I am including malware and virus spreaders in that term.. not just bulk emailers) would recognize the bitshares refer offer to mean more money on the table for them.. they will acquire the new users before the market does and because there is no governance that would prevent them from profiting from the bad behavior.. it will be by their way of trickery and extortion that massive numbers will be acquired where these bad behavior actors will have beaten everyone else to setting up the 'tolls on the road' as Dan put it..

You leave the door open to the snakes.. they come in.. affiliate networks and CPA networks deal with these sort of things ALL the time.. accounts get banned ALL the time for breaking policies they set for what types of marketing activities are acceptable and which are not... if they don't walk that fine line.. those affiliate networks become 'bad neighbourhoods' .. and eventually.. any links that lead to their systems.. become banned in major social networks.

I don't know what kind of industry experts who have real world experience in managing these types of networks have been consulted.. but the threats I talk about are from real world experience I have.. and I have only run one affiliate program myself while participating in many over the years in many networks.

Delegates now are held to account by the people through a system.. this type of bad behavior would easily be voted out and cut off their source of income.. which largely prevents the bad behaviour from happening in the first place..

An affiliate program on the blockchain without governance and oversite to enforce anti-spam policies WILL result in the WORLD enforcing it's governance over it by adding it to the DBLs around the world as a bad neighbourhood that can be caused all by just ONE single bad player. The power of a single spammer to poison a program like this is real... again because the world will attempt to seek out governance from our system only to find there is none.. THEY know what this means (again my reference to industry experts with experience) .. and will act accordingly to label the bitshares community as a bad community that condones the type of bad activity that snagged their attention via spam reports, honey pots, and virus reports... the label will be given only because we will have no mechanism to effectively have people who judge and apply policies of good or bad behaviour to the program to stop the incentive to continue the bad behaviour... on the other hand.. currently a voting system is in place that does effectively 'judge' ... but the proposed system as I heard it has none of that.

Ok.. I have surpassed way to many TLTR buffers in this response. :simple_smile: .. think I have made it clear enough. Without governance, bad actors will be the standard by which bitshares will be seen and judged as a condoner of such activity.

----- Today April 26th, 2015 -----

rnglab [12:03 AM]
I'm afraid I agree with fox and datasecuritynode. Even before reading in depth about new delegate pay rate and BitAsset propositions (huge chances), I believe almost close eyed on founders, devs and main community members judgment.

rnglab [12:05 AM]
but talking about a marketing system implementation at protocol level makes me doubt somehow

rnglab [12:06 AM]
in the long term course of Bitshares

datasecuritynode [12:13 AM]
noooooow.. having said THAT ... and I am thinking of how a refer program COULD be implemented to incentivize along side of everything else and including voters/judges... if I could have a UIA on which the bitshares network would track new users coming in via that 'currency'.. where in that the issuer of the UIA is going to make money on all the transactions of that UIA.. and the UIA becomes the 'gateway' so to speak of the profit model for that business.. it then becomes the UIA issuers responsibility to govern over bad behaviour... BUT.. WE need a way to govern over UIAs as well.. ie. stop bad actors from using the system.. how that would look I am not sure.. but a system like that where a sort of local/self regulated level is there and a public level of oversight is also there.. that I think would provide a mechanism... I am thinking delegates would be ideal to handle that as the trusted.. guardians of the bitshares galaxy. :simple_smile: (movie reference.. recent favorite :simple_smile: )

rnglab [12:14 AM]
(have to say I know nothing about marketing and that I still don't clearly see where this discontent comes from)
datasecuritynode
[12:21 AM]

now if the UIA issuer who brought in the new user can profit on that user in the entire ecosystem.. yes.. that is incentive.. fees would flow to the UIA 'gateway' that user came in through... if bad behviour was found to be a problem with this UIA and they do not act to govern (ie. the UIA issuer is a nasty spammer) .. then the 101 delegates could get a majority vote to 'freeze' the asset and 'cut off' the incentive.. all the users fees then go back to the network... the Guaradians of the BitShares Galaxy did their duty to protect it from evil.



datasecuritynode [12:24 AM]
and in this scenario.. the trusted delegates voted by the public are actually more critical than ever to protecting the interests of bitshare holders

datasecuritynode [12:25 AM]
this is just one way *I* can see it potentially work.. we have an affilite program governed by delegates.. the question of dilution is moot because they are doing more for the public good than what dilution amounts to.. who ever is crying over this needs their head checked.

datasecuritynode [12:35 AM]
btw.. if THIS was how it works.. and UIAs are grandfathered.. I will be one happy BunkerShares UIA issuer :simple_smile:

datasecuritynode [12:35 AM]
and I am betting MoonStone will be doing backflips

How do we check on how our Referrals are doing?

I can check for you on it.. the way we are using the system makes it a bit difficult because you get passed on to the info page. I am going to contact support and see if there is a way for you to do it with our current setup. In the mean time though feel free to PM me and I can check the db for you and let you know.

How about a small pond on top of the bunker.
Bunkershares owners could swim for free. 

You have no idea how bad of an idea that is.. ... there are plans for the roof to take AWAY water.. not build ponds on it.   but if you look to the north of that photo and notice some brush space.. that was where the 34,000 gallon oil tank was located.. it would make an ideal pond.. and we have considered the possibility of starting one to improve our geothermal and reduce our water usage.. even though we have limitless water.. still not cool these days to waste it.

A new introduction video has been done to better explain entry to the bunkershares info page and our refer program:

http://www.bunkershares.ca/

Feedback is welcome.. old spice?