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Messages - Bitcoinfan

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136
General Discussion / Re: Simple Binary Prediction Market Discussion
« on: February 04, 2015, 03:34:24 pm »
It comes down to time value of money.  If the winner has 95 at stake and the loser 5 then the cost to the loser is much less by waiting.   You can change the ratio by shifting the 0 point to .5, in this case the 50/50 odds would be .75.   

As much as liars are irrational, so are those who seek justice.   Let the two of them fight it out for a fee while rational individuals settle.

You'll have to clarify your point.  So your saying your prediction markets should aggregate information based on individual's time preferences their money (i.e. what they want out of their investment) or actual information that corresponds to the event?

If your saying the first one, how useful would knowing how much a group of investments desire for their money be as a prediction market? 

137
General Discussion / Re: Simple Binary Prediction Market Discussion
« on: February 04, 2015, 02:57:23 pm »
Bytemaster,
I'm very glad you brought up this topic.  As it shows that you are considering adding a prediction market functionality to UIA. 

I think you know where I am going with this.

I earnestly encourage you to take a serious second-look at Truthcoin.  I truly feel Truthcoin will be a win-win for Bitshares.   Putting aside your issues of it for now, from my perspective, Bitshares already has a white-listing function to freeze and retrieve funds from accounts.  I think this works in total concert with Truthcoin's SVD process, where resolving markets requires profit-based incentives to punish bad voters and withdrawing their Truthcoins.  I'm not a developer by any means, but from a conceptual standpoint, your already half-way there.  The SVD rules just need to be built in.  Paul (who wrote the whitepaper if you remember) points out that his idea way simpler to implement than all Bitcoin 2.0 projects out there.  And there is already some codebase from Augur.net and Truthcoin floating out there.  It would save your team time.

However, I understand you will probably not want to do this. This could delay the 1.0 for many many months.  I don't know if this could take 80 man-hours.  Unless your planning this prediction market for a 6 month 2.0 release.

I'll note again, as I have on other forums, that Ethereum and a Bitcoin fork all right now have developments in Decentralized Prediction Market that are seeing some sort of release by August (caveat could be later because of project mgmt).  But ultimately I think not making a decision here may result in Bitshares to once again fall behind the curve.  If we were to get on this first, alongside our marketing campaigns we stand to gain tremendously.   




138
General Discussion / Re: Simple Binary Prediction Market Discussion
« on: February 04, 2015, 02:18:49 pm »
You've embraced the notion that every should act like adults and be rational.  But markets can be irrational for a loooooooong time-- thus the requirement for a resolution.

See you, based on the behavioral finance field, the Nobel Prize winner Daniel Kahneman wrote in his book Thinking Fast and Slow, the pain of losing money is (-$100), called loss aversion, is always greater than is the joy that the winner has from gaining money (+$100). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion

Therefore this creates a asymmetric scenario.  The losers will always have greater leverage than the winners, because they will do everything they can to avoid that loss because it hurts so much more.  Think of it like the kid who plays board games with the adults and whines at the very end when he loses. 

For the child, it hurts so much more.  The adults don't understand how much it hurts.  But it pains the kid to the core.  The kid is playing another game than the adults.  He's playing the I have more information game (regardless of the facts of the game) because only he knows who long he can stall the game.  It could be for 5 minutes or maybe he didnt have his breakfast and is unusually more irritated and is planning to stall for the whole day. He has greater power to manipulate the adults.  The adults have no idea how to value that because this is the neighbors child and they don't have any history of his behavior. 

The adults don't want to put up with the child because they don't have the time to, and the reward of the game doesn't justify for them the value of making the child lose.  So they let him win.  But in the end the game is never played again because the adults have other opportunity costs and wouldn't want to bargain with this game in the future because its already set a precedent and somebody else might turn like the kid (maybe another adult).  Why not? The precedent has already been set before. 

I'll end my example with a question.  What if liars come in and buy cheaply into a market with the expectation of stalling longer than the honest bettor?  What if the unfairness of stalling has turned away all honest people?


139
General Discussion / Re: Simple Binary Prediction Market Discussion
« on: February 04, 2015, 01:27:06 pm »
This was also briefly discussed on the truth coin forums. 

http://forum.truthcoin.info/index.php/topic,149.0.html

Markets need to have a guarantee of resolve.  Otherwise if there was no guarantee, what economic incentives would that give to the "honest bettors"  to come in and align the markets so that it is justified.  Not to mention that both sides of the bet could never agree to a sum to end the pm, because the losing bettor will always has greater value if he holds out.  By playing the waiting game He has more to gain from disgruntling the other side into agreeing at any price.  So just from waiting he will stand to gain more than nothing.  This internal market conflict in this transaction  happens irregardless of what actually happened on the real world.   If your telling the loser they can holdout and be free of face economic consequences but you may actually gain, then they will do it every time, frustrating the honest bettors.  As a result honest bettors will never want to enter.  The cost of resolving would be too much.   There is no causal link between the real world and the prediction market because economic incentives were not guaranteed to correspond with actual outcomes,  therefore people have no trust to bet according to their actual beliefs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

140
Technical Support / Re: !!! Stupid Questions Thread !!!
« on: February 01, 2015, 05:24:57 am »
What happens when I am in a short position in a very thin market and am forced into a cover at the end of 30 days.  Generally the rules state that I will have to buy the shorts in queue at or below feed.  However, what if the market does not have enough shorts for me to purchase and only is able to purchase a portion of my short position.  What then happens to the remainder of my cover?

141
General Discussion / Re: [ANN] Cryptohedge Financial Services soft launch
« on: February 01, 2015, 05:06:39 am »
This is really compelling. 

Could you clarify this point for me.  Its not clear to me if what is being sold right now is part of your initial CFS Blockchain Offering.  If we purchase CFSGold now, will we be part of this 40% sharedrop?


"CFS sharedrop
When Cryptohedge begins public trading on the BitShares Decentralized Exchange, the share
allocation will be 40% to employees, 40% offered to the public in the CFS Initial Blockchain
Offering. The remaining 20% of CFS shares will be given for free to CFSasset investors, with
half of these (10% of total CFS) going to CFSGOLD investors."

142
Is gold really $1667?  Is that a live price feed or just a example. 

143
General Discussion / Re: [Provocative] BitUSD Isn't Worth The Trouble
« on: January 31, 2015, 07:34:04 pm »
Actually initially i thought the best usecase for
bitshares was to somehow incorporate the merge of features or voting for delegates
based on prediction markets. It might help in more natural selection process leading to faster and
better innovation.

Since we already can vote all it is is putting incentives in place to actually vote.

Its often cited that Prediction Markets were used in Fortune 500 corporations such as Google and GE to name a few.  But what fails to come through is that these programs were quickly dismantled and are no longer in service because of how effective they were in project management.  It became embarrassing how pin-point accurate other teams were at judging another department's work and their progress.  (They had simple questions such as will team ABC finish their workout program by the end of Q1.)  The other employees could make quick work of whether another team was going to succeed or fail and it put that team under more scrutiny.  Within that scope of the experiment, PM's became Key Performance Indicators for how well managers and chief officers were doing at their jobs. 

CEO's observed that information that was being siloed at the top was being squeezed and disseminated throughout the organization, calling into question the strategic moves they were making.  Chief Officers are in positions of decision making because they hold informational secrets that are not beholden to the rest and are trusted to act on that information.  If the company evaluate actions itself without that one person, why was their job needed in the first place?  So in order to preserve confidentiality, the programs were closed down. 

I agree with you that for a flat organizational structure like a DAC, a Prediction Market Model is a key innovation for implementing self-organization.  Right now we are in the infancy of accounting for delegates.  I've seen some frustration with Blackwavelabs for the lack of communication, resulting in their firing and this has inspired others to demand Delegate Reports from the Delegates themselves.  Its a necessary step, but the fact remains, not all of us will read through 101 Delegate Reports every quarter, and as stakeholders we won't always be able to make the optimal votes for BTS just based on Delegate Reports.  There will be extraneous information posted on forums, on twitter feeds, on news articles that we will all never be able to get to.  There is just not enough time in the world. 

The simplicity of internal PM's is that it aggregate all public information.  As a result, in this financial poll that is not linked to votes, we will be able to discern through bad and good delegates quickly.

It solves a lot of problems for us, so yes I'm a little shocked that there as been little effort around Prediction Markets.  Its so closely aligned to our visionary message and at some point we will have to use PM's in this regard.  Will Delegate A be fired by Dec 12, 20XX?  Will Delegate B succeed in their advertising campaign and bringing in 20K new users?  Will a working hardware wallet for BTS reach the hands of consumers by 2016?  I think having questions like this and on other subjects around us is exciting and fun.  It would certainly help bring attention and that critical mass.

By the time we get to this, both Ethereum and Truthcoin would have already had their versions out.

144
General Discussion / Re: [Provocative] BitUSD Isn't Worth The Trouble
« on: January 31, 2015, 04:12:56 am »
I think hes saying bitusd is useful for prediction market but not for spending.. i thought we were going to add predictio markets ? I was thinking about recruiting this guy cause he wanted to do a new coin

I proposed this to BM a year ago.  Toast was interested then, but there was not enough bandwidth to work on it. 

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3916.0

Disappointing really as this would have been so immensely profitable to Bitshares if they got to it first.  And we would have avoided this discussion about how BINGO is meant to be value-added to bitshares in a fun innocent way.  We could instead have had viral interest generated (transactions as well!) from NCAA Bitshares Tourneys. 

Paul did say Syscoin was interested in Truthcoin.  Are you still working for Syscoin?

PS.  I think BM and Team are doing outstanding work.  Bitshares has the core ideological values that matter for establishing an perennial organization but at the same time drives to stimulate change off those values.  Its an important formula for visionary companies to get down.  Just wished things could have worked out differently.  Maybe it still can...   
 

145
General Discussion / Re: Changes to Cover Rules - Eliminate 5% fee
« on: January 27, 2015, 10:29:24 pm »
I'm trying to keep up  with the bid ask rules,  We're getting an average of 1% yield right now.  There were expectations that this would be 5% floor that was the minimum.  Is this still the plan?  Or will this be implemented in a bitusd5percent, bitusd10percent asset name?


Asking this as I'm curious as to how bitshares will use these yield rates to attract banks to hold bitusd as you had mentioned before.  you don't have to explain your strategy right now ...

146
General Discussion / Re: Changes to Cover Rules - Eliminate 5% fee
« on: January 27, 2015, 10:12:06 pm »


I presume this also removes the +5% given to Bitasset holders?

147
General Discussion / Re: Low trading volume on bitUSD
« on: January 19, 2015, 09:20:38 pm »

I would wait for 2 -3 days since kind of afraid tomorrow's huge amounts of bts released on a single day......

What are you talking about?

Vested balance.

Oh right. Do you think we could see a dump tomorrow?

Well let's see...I believe the vesting period began on 11/5/14, right? Two and a half months. And the vesting is for a period of 2 years...which means approx. 52,083,333 of the 500,000,000 new BTS will be unlocked at once. I can't imagine everyone is going to claim all at once, and I'm sure plenty of people will want to hold it...

But yea, there may be a small dump going on.

Maybe we should wait a year for BTS to get solid footing before unlocking the balances?  :P

Why would any of the 52 mm be dumped?  I thought it was a penalty, where if you transfer, you lose the a certain percentage.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

148
General Discussion / Re: Collecting vested balance in .50 wallet?
« on: January 17, 2015, 08:49:03 pm »
Thanks.  Any idea of how these vested BTS will be differentiated, so that they can't be mistakenly transferred and exposed to penalty?

149
General Discussion / Collecting vested balance in .50 wallet?
« on: January 17, 2015, 08:29:14 pm »
I'm trying to claim my shares without any luck.  But if we collect our vested balance now, does it get penalized with the decreasing deduction rule Bytemaster talked about earlier? 


150
General Discussion / Re: You guys don't understand devshares.
« on: December 29, 2014, 07:08:10 pm »


I have been thinking about it some more and here is where I am leaning pending review:

100% BTS with the 2 year vesting period converted into a 2 month vesting period and removing the 1% allocated to VOTE. 


Removing the 1% allocated to Vote?  This is surprising.  Is this a change in strategy after the Cali meeting?  Still a cornerstone of your marketing plans?

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