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Messages - Myshadow

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16
General Discussion / Re: Bitshares vs Bitcoin Locks
« on: March 17, 2015, 01:46:09 am »
I've been In contact with Rassah from mycelium, and it seems that the reason they went with coinapult is because most people outside the Bitshares ecosystem think that the market pegged assets are debt based...

The other point of contention for Rassah was that bitUSD pays interest - this was a warning flag to him.

Not sure why this is the case but its interesting to note, I wonder where this information came from? It seems to me that there's value in collaborating with companies already entrenched in the bitcoin space and making them aware of how Bitshares works first. Ride the coat tails of bitcoin's success to increased liquidity for the market pegs and a better system...


17
General Discussion / Re: Indexcoin White Paper - Hello Bitshares
« on: March 10, 2015, 02:35:10 am »
Sucks about the job dude, I hate to be the one to say this but you're not going to make money out of being a middleman for a crypto based index and no investor with half a brain is going to give you money to create another altcoin that tracks an asset based off price feeds... Especially when what you describe is exactly what Bitshares does already.

Bitwolf is right. Get a proposal for the index together that includes how the index would adjust the basket of assets over time, then run yourself a delegate and suss out whats required to the other delegates to publish your index feed, there may well be big BTS holders that would find value in a BTS backed crypto-index. Thats your ticket to not commuting for 2 hours ;)

18
We are bitcoins killer app.   If we put our egos aside and make the best bitcoin wallet possible with built in hedging, millions will flow into bitUSD and the users will never have evenheard of bitshares.

The bitcoin headline reads....

"Receive and send bitcoin. Hedge bitcoin price without counter party risk.  Bitcoins killer app is here."

I like this idea as it doesn't require a bounty or current developer time to attempt.

The only minor concern I can think of is that by not actively promoting BitShares then Bitcoin users are ambivalent to the product they are using. This gives Bitcoin time to develop a similar solution maybe via side chains? (I don't know anything about technical stuff.) So during this window of opportunity we have to promote BitShares and BitAssets, we would have promoted & empowered Bitcoin with our USP and then be made obsolete once they can replace us with their Bitcoin collateralised or other solution and users wouldn't know the difference.

The concern is worthy of consideration, but I think the upside massively outweighs the potential risk.  Also I have thought about it a bit more and branding of bitUSD will be important.  Still no bitshares branding though.   Getting bitUSD into many users hands is of utmost important.   If that happens market cap skyrockets, devs flood to bitshares, and network effects kick ass.   There is no other opportunity that even comes close to this that I am aware of.

https://twitter.com/BitConsultants/status/559449950036037632 if theres someone who knows any of these wallet Devs, i think we'd be better off making these guys aware of the superior decentralized system we have instead of reinventing the wheel...

19
Rights are granted by your ability to enforce it. Law enforcement capability alone is what determines the rights that exist. If it cannot be enforced then it's imaginary (like moral rights).

I think all rights have to be enforced whether by mathematics or physical force.

People consent to the use of physical force as a valid way to preserve their rights. Last I heard half of the people in the USA thought torture was justified to prevent terrorism... http://www.ibtimes.com/cia-torture-report-poll-half-americans-say-enhanced-interrogation-was-justified-1758576

To me that's a truly terrifying statistic. However, people used to consent to their taxes being used to catch slaves also... Times have changed and morality with it.

The key word is consent, consensus on morality is required for rights to be enforced, whether it be by physical force or mathematics.

20
I empathise with the view that evidence gives one greater confidence in one's deductions. However Von Mises says (p69, Human Action) that "it is impossible to abstract any causal relations from the study of complex phenomena". If it were possible to isolate all other variables as one might in a scientific experiment, then empiricism stands a shot. But it is impossible to do this with historic statistics on complex dynamic systems. [Edit: There is also no ability to repeat and verify]. Thus Mises' emphasis on deductive reasoning, despite its openness to challenge and review. Of course he could be wrong like anybody else, and maybe your resolve might lead to a better approach.

I do certainly see your point, We can't reliably repeat and verify the effects of preferential behaviours on society based off historic examples, so we can't rely on that as evidence to support objective morality or the effects of universally preferential behaviour on complex systems. Well we could try but it would never be accepted as objective fact by rational people.

I think what Mises is trying to get across here in a somewhat roundabout way is that Correlation is not Causation(I could be missing the point here so please correct me if i've misunderstood).

However, having a basis of principle in deductive reasoning is a valid way to abstract reason from evidence, this is what Austrian economics is built on. I think we can derive the principles of morality in the same way... If we can, the results can be objectively verified by the evidence.

Stan, I certainly hope its about #3... Otherwise I may have missed the point. :)

21
The essential problem with this is the same problem with attempting to empirically demonstrate economic principles - the sample is only historic, and is influenced by so many other factors you would never be able to tease them apart. That's why Austrian economics is built on a foundation of presumably axiomatic principles and not on empirical testing.

Are the requirements for Economics that much different? Would we be Austrians if the fall of the Roman empire could be clearly demonstrated to be linked to a lack of debasement of their currency?

Of course not! Both internal consistency of principle as well as supporting evidence are required for any given hypothesis to be accepted as accurate by rational individuals. This is why an internally consistent principle is required to validate actions as moral or immoral as well as the evidence supporting it.

22
I Agree, I'd go further and say that we can empirically demonstrate that the Initiation of Force is Evil.

If we can empirically demonstrate that, then we already have the objectively validated framework that we need to build society on, its hard to get your head around, but incredibly simple at the same time.

23
Awesome post Ander, You explained far better than I could what I was trying to get at :)

I am not a fan of Pinker though, his statistics are cherry picked and only include first world countries after world war 2 so his conclusion that a larger government means less violence is woefully inaccurate to say the least. The review below sums it up quite well.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/john-gray-steven-pinker-violence-review

A sceptical reader might wonder whether the outbreak of peace in developed countries and endemic conflict in less fortunate lands might not be somehow connected. Was the immense violence that ravaged southeast Asia after 1945 a result of immemorial backwardness in the region? Or was a subtle and refined civilization wrecked by world war and the aftermath of decades of neo-colonial conflict—as Norman Lewis intimated would happen in his prophetic account of his travels in the region, A Dragon Apparent (1951)? It is true that the second world war was followed by over 40 years of peace in North America and Europe—even if for the eastern half of the continent it was a peace that rested on Soviet conquest. But there was no peace between the powers that had emerged as rivals from the global conflict.

In much the same way that rich societies exported their pollution to developing countries, the societies of the highly-developed world exported their conflicts. They were at war with one another the entire time—not only in Indo-China but in other parts of Asia, the Middle East, Africa and Latin America. The Korean war, the Chinese invasion of Tibet, British counter-insurgency warfare in Malaya and Kenya, the abortive Franco-British invasion of Suez, the Angolan civil war, decades of civil war in the Congo and Guatemala, the Six Day War, the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956 and of Czechoslovakia in 1968, the Iran-Iraq war and the Soviet-Afghan war—these are only some of the armed conflicts through which the great powers pursued their rivalries while avoiding direct war with each other. When the end of the Cold War removed the Soviet Union from the scene, war did not end. It continued in the first Gulf war, the Balkan wars, Chechnya, the Iraq war and in Afghanistan and Kashmir, among other conflicts. Taken together these conflicts add up to a formidable sum of violence. For Pinker they are minor, peripheral and hardly worth mentioning. The real story, for him, is the outbreak of peace in advanced societies, a shift that augurs an unprecedented transformation in human affairs.

24

But I would love to see a high-quality, thoughtful sequel to The Matrix where all of the arguments made above are carried on by characters in white lab coats observing a computer generated universe from the inside and pontificating about how they are able to know everything there is to know by applying the Scientific Method. 



Characterising reality in this way leads to an endless causal chain. The reality within can only be completely described from the more encompassing reality, where there will be yet more beings in their version of lab coats speculating on their own reality. And by the same logic, that reality can only be described by an even larger reality. And so forth. And then likewise that infinite hierarchy of realities can only be described by a meta-reality. And that meta-reality by an even larger meta-reality, and so forth. Sounds like a long (yet interesting) film....



A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"

—Hawking, 1988


25
Nice contribution Myshadow. Here's my take on it...[your first post above]

Any scientific theory can be falsified by a single piece of contradictory evidence. Surely the fact that different people make moral choices that are different in the same given situations is enough evidence to prove that there is not a complete set of universal preferences of behaviour?
Thanks :) I'm glad you found it as interesting as I did. I don't think it is, the fact that it is required that people are required to eat to survive is not negated by the fact that some people choose not to eat or survive.
Is there even a single subset of behaviour that absolutely everyone can agree on as always holding? I guess this is what the author is trying to show via examples.
No i don't think there is. I still don't think this negates the validity of universally preferable behaviour because of the reason above.
The excerpt discusses the preference for truth over falsity. But the scientific sample is only those who participate in the debate, arguing all such participants are clearly espousing truth over falsity. But this ignores the full sample of humanity, including those choosing to not have a view or to be silent from the debate. Nothing can be deduced of their preferences. Even if they all preferred some view of truth over falsity, this says nothing about their moral preferences (rules of interacting with others to elucidate or confer truth).

The excerpt also discusses the biological preference to breathe, eat and drink. But these are not forms of human interaction that say anything about moral preferences. The piece is trying to identify a base of universally preferred behaviours, when it should be focused on universally preferred modes of interaction, or morals. Universally preferred behaviours that have no moral implication are irrelevant.
I don't think that interactions can be put in a different class to other behaviours like drinking or eating. I think they should be subject to the same method of analysis to evaluate whether or not they are universally preferable as eating or drinking are. The examples given aren't relevant to morals, but they are proof of universally preferable behaviours.
The problem with this type of argument overall, is that there is not an irrefutable logic around these concepts that everybody will agree with. So though the author believes his case is strong enough to personally believe in objective morality, the subjectivity of the logic used means the case is left open for others. ie. It is only subjectively objective (or subjectively subjective).
I would say that he has irrefutably proved that eating and drinking are UPB if the objective is survival. Could the same framework be applied to morally relevant behaviours with the same certainty of results? If it can, then any behaviour can then be evaluated using UPB framework to determine its validity in assuring an agreed upon outcome.

In regards to the example given by arhag, I don't think that the apathy toward ethics/economics/philosophy of most people proves that morals are subjective or that UPB doesn't exist. The majority may be apathetic toward these things out of choice, but it does not mean that it is preferable for them to be that way if they want to live well and be happy, or even preferable if they want to preserve the meager amount of wealth they have by understanding the system they support is destined to fail and looking for alternatives... If anything, the results of the apathetic nature of most people help to prove that apathy toward these things is not preferable if you want a society where the initiation of force is minimized.

I also reject the assertion that the scientific method is subjective. We certainly don't have to use it if we don't want to but that doesn't make its results any less consistent, accurate and it certainly doesn't change the way it works.

26
The greatest challenge of philosophy is the definition of a universal, objective and absolute morality that does not rely on God or the state. The moment that we rely on God or the state for the definition of morality, morality no longer remains universal, objective and absolute. In other words, it is no longer “morality.”

The invention of imaginary entities such as “God” and “the state” does nothing to answer our questions about morality.

We fully understand that the invention of God did nothing – and does nothing – to answer questions about the origin of life, or the universe. To say, in answer to any question, “some incomprehensible being did some inconceivable thing in some unfathomable manner for unknowable purposes,” cannot be considered any sort of rational answer.

The gravest danger in making up incomprehensible “answers” to rational and essential questions is that it provides the illusion of an answer, which in general negates the pursuit of truth. Furthermore, a group inevitably coalesces to defend and profit from this irrational non-answer.

In the realm of religion, this is the priestly caste. In the realm of government, this is the political caste.

When a real and essential question is met with a mystical and violent “answer,” human progress turns to regression. The science of meteorology fails to come into being if the priests say that the rain comes because the gods will it. The science of medicine fails to develop if illness is considered a moral punishment from the gods. The science of physics stalls and regresses if the motion of the stars is considered the clockwork of the deities.

When false answers are presented to moral questions, questioning those answers inevitably becomes a moral crime. When illusions are substituted for curiosity, those who profit from those illusions inevitably end up using violence to defend their lies.

And for evermore, children are the first victims of these exploitive falsehoods.

Children do not have to be bullied into eating candy, playing tag, or understanding that two plus two is four. The human mind does not require that the truth be inflicted through terror, boredom, insults and repetition. A child does not have to be “taught” that a toy is real by telling him that he is damned to hell for eternity if he does not believe that the toy is real. A child does not have to be bullied into believing that chocolate tastes good by being told that his taste buds are damned by original sin.

Saying that morality exists because God tells us that it exists is exactly the same as saying that morality does not exist. If you buy an iPod from me on eBay, and I send you an empty box, you will write to me in outrage. If I tell you not to worry, that my invisible friend assures me that there is in fact an iPod in the box, would you be satisfied? Would not my claim that my invisible friend tells me of the iPod’s existence be a certain proof that the iPod did not in fact exist?

If morality is justified according to the authority of a being that does not exist, then morality by definition is not justified. If I write a check that is “certified” by a bank that does not exist, then clearly my check is by definition invalid.

The same is true for enforcing morality through the irrational monopoly of “the state.” If we allow the existence of a government – a minority of people who claim the right to initiate the use of force, a right which is specifically denied to everyone else – then any and all moral “rules” enforced by the government are purely subjective, since the government is by definition based on a violation of moral rules.

If I say that I need the government to protect my property, but that the government is by definition a group of people who can violate my property rights at will, then I am caught in an insurmountable contradiction. I am saying that my property rights must be defended – and then I create an agency to defend them that can violate them at any time. This is like being so afraid of rape that I hire a bodyguard to protect me from being raped – but in the contract, I allow my bodyguard – and anyone he chooses – to rape me at will.

Because “morality” based on the state and on religion is so irrational and self-contradictory, it requires a social agency with a monopoly on the initiation of force to function. Since everyone is just making up “morals” and claiming absolute justification based on imaginary entities, rational negotiation and understanding remain impossible. We do not need a government because people are bad, but rather, because people are irrational, we end up with a government. False moral theories always end up requiring violence to enforce them. Moral theories are not developed in response to violence – false moral theories cause violence – in fact, demand violence.

The moral subjectivism and irrationality involved in answering “What is truth?” with “God,” and “What is morality?” with “government,” is so openly revealed by the framework of UPB that it is hard to imagine that this concept is not more widespread.

One central reason for this is that truly understanding UPB requires the very highest possible mental functioning. It is relatively easy to be rational; it is very difficult to think about the implicit premises of rationality, and all that they entail. It is relatively easy to debate; it is very difficult to tease out all of the implicit assumptions involved in the very act of debating.

It is easy to catch a ball – it is hard to invent the physics that explain motion universally.

Thinking about thinking is the hardest mental discipline of all.

At the beginning of this book, I talked about a “beast” that terrified and enslaved mankind. This beast is always located on a mountaintop, or in a deep cave. People are afraid of the beast in the world, which is why the beast has never been defeated.

The beast has never been defeated because the beast is an illusion.

The beast cannot be defeated in the world, because the beast is within ourselves.

The collective fantasy that there exists a “null zone,” where morality magically reverses itself, called “the government” is exactly the same as the collective fantasy that there exists a “null zone” called “God” where reality reverses itself.

If we define “morality” according to the subjective fantasies of mere mortals, then it will forever remain under the manipulative control of power-hungry tyrants. Since God does not exist, anyone who speaks about morality in relation to God is just making up definitions to serve his own purposes.

Since “the state” does not exist, anyone who speaks about morality in relation to government is just making up definitions to serve his own purposes.

Until we can define an objective and rational morality that is free from the subjective whims of each individual, we will never make the kind of progress that we need to as a species.

Morality, like physics, biology, geology and chemistry, must join the realm of the sciences if we are to flourish – and indeed, perhaps, to survive at all.

However, if we can sustain our courage, it is this discipline alone that can set us, and our children – and all humanity in the future – free from the tyranny of the greatest beast: our own moral illusions.

27
I love that this forum has discussions like this and the discussions remain discussions that I am able to learn from and enjoy. I'm just going to leave this excerpt from https://board.freedomainradio.com/page/books/universally_preferable_behavior_a_rational_proof_of_secular_ethics.html regarding morality here. :)

The closest historical analogy to our present situation occurred in the 15th and 16th centuries, during the rise of the scientific method. The early pioneers who advocated a rational and empirical approach to knowledge faced the same prejudices that we face today – all the same irrationalities, entrenched powers of church and state, mystical and subjective “absolutes” and early educational barriers. Those who advocated the primacy of rationality and empirical observation over Biblical fundamentalism and secular tyrannies faced the determined opposition of those wielding both cross and sword. Many were tortured to death for their intellectual honesty – we face far less risk, and so should be far more courageous in advocating what is true over what is believed.

In order to attack false moralities, we must start from the beginning, just as the first scientists did. Francis Bacon did not argue that the scientific method was more “efficient” than prayer, Bible texts or starvation-induced visions. He simply said that if we want to understand nature, we must observe nature and theorize logically – and that there is no other route to knowledge.

We must take the same approach in defining and communicating morality. We must begin using the power and legitimacy of the scientific method to prove the validity and universality of moral laws. We must start from the beginning, build logically and reject any irrational or non-empirical substitutes for the truth.

What does this look like in practice? All we have to do is establish the following axioms:

Morality is a valid concept.
Moral rules must be consistent for all mankind.
The validity of a moral theory is judged by its consistency.

To start from the very beginning… are moral rules – or universally preferable human behaviours – valid at all?

There are only two possibilities when it comes to moral rules, just as there are in any logical science. Either universal moral rules are valid, or they are not. (In physics, the question is: either universal physical rules are valid, or they are not.)

A rule can be valid if it exists empirically, like gravity, or because it is true, like the equation 2+2=4.

We must then first ask: do moral rules exist at all?

Certainly not in material reality, which does not contain or obey a single moral rule. Moral rules are different from the rules of physics, just as the scientific method is different from gravity. Matter innately obeys gravity or the second law of thermodynamics, but “thou shalt not murder” is nowhere inscribed in the nature of things. Physical laws describe the behaviour of matter, but do not contain a single prescription. Science says that matter does behave in a certain manner – never that it should behave in a certain manner. A theory of gravity proves that if you push a man off a cliff, he will fall. It will not tell you whether you should push him or not.

Thus it cannot be said that moral rules exist in material reality, and neither are they automatically obeyed like the laws of physics – which does not mean that moral laws are false, subjective or irrelevant. The scientific method itself does not exist in reality either – and is also optional – but it is not at all false, subjective or irrelevant.

If we can prove that moral theories can be objective, rational and verifiable, this will provide the same benefits to ethics that subjecting physical theories to the scientific method did.

Before the rise of the scientific method, people believed that matter obeyed the subjective whims of gods and devils – and people believe the same of morality now. Volcanoes erupted because the mountain-god was angry; good harvests resulted from human or animal sacrifices. No one believed that absolute physical laws could limit the will of the gods – and so science could never develop. Those who historically profited from defining physical reality as subjective – mostly priests and aristocrats – fought the subjugation of physical theories to the scientific method, just as those who currently profit from defining morality as subjective – mostly priests and politicians – currently fight the subjugation of moral theories to objective and universal principles.

As mentioned above, the scientific method is essentially a methodology for separating accurate from inaccurate theories by subjecting them to two central tests: logical consistency and empirical observation – and by always subjugating logical consistency to empirical observation. If I propose a perfectly consistent and logical theory that says that a rock will float up when thrown off a cliff, any empirical test proves my theory incorrect, since observation always trumps hypothesis.

A further aspect of the scientific method is the belief that, since matter is composed of combinations of atoms with common, stable and predictable properties, the behaviour of matter must also be common, stable and predictable. Thus experiments must be reproducible in different locations and times. I cannot say that my “rock floating” theory is correct for just one particular rock, or on the day I first tested it, or at a single location. My theories must describe the behaviour of matter, which is universal, common, stable and predictable.

Finally, there is a generally accepted rule – sometimes called Occam’s Razor – which states that, of any two theories that have the same predictive power, the simpler of the two is preferable. Prior to the Copernican revolution, when Earth was considered the centre of the universe, the retrograde motion of Mars when Earth passed it in orbit around the sun caused enormous problems to the Ptolemaic system of astronomical calculations. “Circles within circles” multiplied enormously, which were all cleared away by simply placing the sun at the centre of the solar system and accepting the elliptical nature of planetary orbits.

Thus any valid scientific theory must be (a) universal, (b) logical, (c) empirically verifiable, (d) reproducible and (e) as simple as possible.

The methodology for judging and proving a moral theory is exactly the same as the methodology for judging and proving any other theory.

Moral Rules: A Definition
The first question regarding moral rules is: what are they?

Simply put, morals are a set of rules claiming to accurately and consistently identify universally preferable human behaviours, just as physics is a set of rules claiming to accurately and consistently identify the universal behaviour of matter.

The second question to be asked is: is there any such thing as “universally preferable behaviour” at all? If there is, we can begin to explore what such behaviour might be. If not, then our examination must stop here – just as the examination of Ptolemaic astronomy ceased after it became commonly accepted that the Sun was in fact the centre of the solar system.

As we discussed above, the proposition that there is no such thing as preferable behaviour contains an insurmountable number of logical and empirical problems. “Universally preferable behaviour” must be a valid concept, for five main reasons.

The first is logical: if I argue against the proposition that universally preferable behaviour is valid, I have already shown my preference for truth over falsehood – as well as a preference for correcting those who speak falsely. Saying that there is no such thing as universally preferable behaviour is like shouting in someone’s ear that sound does not exist – it is innately self-contradictory. In other words, if there is no such thing as universally preferable behaviour, then one should oppose anyone who claims that there is such a thing as universally preferable behaviour. However, if one “should” do something, then one has just created universally preferable behaviour. Thus universally preferable behaviour – or moral rules – must be valid.

Syllogistically, this is:

The proposition is: the concept “universally preferable behaviour” must be valid.

Arguing against the validity of universally preferable behaviour demonstrates universally preferable behaviour.

Therefore no argument against the validity of universally preferable behaviour can be valid.

We all know that there are subjective preferences, such as liking ice cream or jazz, which are not considered binding upon other people. On the other hand, there are other preferences, such as rape and murder, which clearly are inflicted on others. There are also preferences for logic, truth and evidence, which are also binding upon others (although they are not usually violently inflicted) insofar as we all accept that an illogical proposition must be false or invalid.

Those preferences which can be considered binding upon others can be termed “universal preferences,” or “moral rules.”

How else can we know that the concept of “moral rules” is valid?

We can examine the question biologically as well as syllogistically.

For instance, all matter is subject to physical rules – and everything that lives is in addition subject to certain requirements, and thus, if it is alive, must have followed universally preferred behaviours. Life, for instance, requires fuel and oxygen. Any living mind, of course, is an organic part of the physical world, and so is subject to physical laws and must have followed universally preferred behaviours – to argue otherwise would require proof that consciousness is not composed of matter, and is not organic – an impossibility, since it has mass, energy, and life. Arguing that consciousness is subject to neither physical rules nor universally preferred behaviours would be like arguing that human beings are immune to gravity, and can flourish without eating.

Thus it is impossible that anyone can logically argue against universally preferable behaviour, since if he is alive to argue, he must have followed universally preferred behaviours such as breathing, eating and drinking.

Syllogistically, this is:

All organisms require universally preferred behaviour to live.

Man is a living organism.

Therefore all living men are alive due to the practice of universally preferred behaviour.

Therefore any argument against universally preferable behaviour requires an acceptance and practice of universally preferred behaviour.

Therefore no argument against the existence of universally preferable behaviour can be valid.

Since the scientific method requires empirical corroboration, we must also look to reality to confirm our hypothesis – and here the validity of universally preferable behaviour is fully supported.

Every sane human being believes in moral rules of some kind. There is some disagreement about what constitutes moral rules, but everyone is certain that moral rules are valid – just as many scientists disagree, but all scientists accept the validity of the scientific method itself. One can argue that the Earth is round and not flat – which is analogous to changing the definition of morality – but one cannot argue that the Earth does not exist at all – which is like arguing that there is no such thing as universally preferable behaviour.


28
General Discussion / Re: The Golden Principle Critique
« on: January 21, 2015, 11:36:41 pm »
Thanks for your thoughts Myshadow. As you infer, we all naturally understand that others can justifiably act from different moral codes. For our own spiritual peace we must act consistent with our own principles, but we also fully expect the consequences of those actions to depend on the moral norms and reactions of others. Is it even possible for a community to form a consensus on any moral principle that will always dominate in any choice? If not, can there ever be a consensus on the true nature of freedom?

My pleasure! Thank you also :) I'm not sure that someone who was in a situation where it was kill or be killed and killed someone would be at spiritual peace if they survived. I can understand that people will act certain ways due to emotional responses, however I would not try and label their actions whilst in heightened emotional states or crises as a justified moral code or principle.

I don't think that adherence by everyone to a principle is possible or required for a principle to be valid. Does someone starving themselves to death invalidate the principle that humans need food to survive? I know its not a principle per-say, but this fact is consistent with scientific principles and will continue to be consistent unless the laws of physics change.

Just as the above example doesn't invalidate the laws of physics, neither does someone acting immorally in a time of crisis invalidate universal moral principles. With that in mind I think there can be consensus on these principles only if they are logically consistent, objective and results are repeatable.

If we define freedom as doing anything you like that doesn't violate the NAP or property rights then I think its definitely possible.

29
General Discussion / Re: The Golden Principle Critique
« on: January 21, 2015, 12:20:24 am »
For what its worth, at least based on my views right at this point in time, I would save my suicidal friend even if I had to physically harm them to stop them. In my view, the consequence is less harm than choosing or doing nothing. In any case, I don't think they would reasonably hold it against me, because it ought to be their expectation that if they tried this in my presence that I would indeed try to stop them. Whether or not I would like it, it would be my expectation that somebody else would do the same for me, and I should have to factor that into my decision and methods if I decided to try it.

On the second choice, I would save my loved one. The fact they are more gracious than the other person is irrelevant. Selfishly I have more to gain from saving my loved one than the other person, and in any case there is no way really to judge the emotional impact on each of them at the point of rescue or death, or thereafter.

And I would stop the person who was about to do harm even if they disagreed and I had to harm them to some degree (limited by the level of harm they were about to inflict themselves) to stop them, because based on my belief (subjectively the only one that counts) the consequences are more beneficial in doing so rather than letting them proceed.

I'm still not clear if any of these choices are in breach of NAP or GP...?

I'd say that saving your friend is in violation of the NAP, but the other example is not in violation. If we accept you have self ownership then you're well within your rights to make your own decisions about what to do in this case.

That said, though you saving your friend could be argued as objectively immoral, I for one would understand that you'd do this (and would probably do it myself) I think most would do the same if the conditions were right ie: if they were not terminally ill and in constant pain.

Just as stealing is objectively immoral, most would steal to feed their family if they thought there were no other options available to them. Just as murder is immoral most would kill if it were kill or be killed and there are very few people who would not understand this.

The biological incentive to survive and protect your family(genes) will override conceptual principles any day of the week, however that doesn't mean that the luxury of logically consistent moral principles won't provide vastly better results in situations where they are able to be adhered to.


30
General Discussion / Re: The Golden Principle Critique
« on: January 14, 2015, 12:47:07 am »
Hi Clains,

My argument was as follows provided we accept that a valid universal principle must produce consistent and desirable results at all times in all places for all people. What constitutes desirable and how to arrive at an objective definition is an interesting one, though for this case i think we're all on the same page so a few pages of clarification isn't necessary:

1: BM asserts that the Non-Aggression Principle(NAP) is too ambiguous to serve as the sole foundation of society and proposed the Golden Principle(GP) as an alternative.
2: BM explains the NAP's ambiguity by applying it the concept of Government and correctly deduces that when applied to a concept, the principle can produce undesirable results.
3: Therefore application of Principles that require action or inaction in the physical world to concepts is invalid.

BM updated his GP post with an objective clarification which helps to solidify his position, however something still doesn't sit right with me. I'll go away and have a think about it and come back :)

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