Hmm...does this mean we expect the supply to actually decrease to 2bn sometime in the medium-near future, in spite of dilution? I understand that the supply is basically 2.5bn now and is expandable up to 3.7bn max, but do we really expect the burn and transaction fees to offset this dilution anytime soon? How long-term are we thinking here, 5 years, 10-20 years?

It still feels difficult to "make long-term valuations for BTS" when the supply seems to range anywhere from 2 - 3.7 billion...am I missing anything?

low translation fee attract more people use bitusd , because it close to zero cost,  so if the price of bts is up to $10, maybe the translation fee will reduce to 0.01BTS per tx 

Quote from: luckybit on November 23, 2014, 05:38:12 PM

Quote from: OldMan on November 23, 2014, 02:50:28 PM

Quote from: luckybit on November 23, 2014, 03:23:13 AM

Quote from: toast on November 22, 2014, 06:01:32 PM
I think this would really help people understand how to make long-term valuations for BTS. We pursue things that help us burn BTS so that we can eventually start getting paid for owning stake in a profitable autonomous system.

The mechanics of the dividend are not important except that it should be in bitUSD or bitGOLD.

For tax reasons I would prefer not to receive any BitUSD dividends. It makes things complicated legally. Just burn the BTS and you have a capital gains tax to pay if the price goes up which is lower than an income tax in some cases.

I prefer burning and I think it's also politically inappropriate to promote BitUSD over all other currencies. BitGOLD might be okay but GOLD is volatile and isn't BTS so it's not actual stake in the system. I do see that it might encourage people to hold BitUSD or BitGold and it has some strong points but I think deflation works for everyone without favoring any political currencies, specific BitAssets, or legal possibilities.

There is a lot of merit in this.

But eventually BTS is going to have to reset the share supply.

So just reset on a monthly basis to maintain a 2bn share supply.

BTS holders recieve BTS deposit on the first of the month; no need for bitUSD/GOLD etc.

I don't see why the share supply has to be reset. In fact I think developers need to stop messing with the share supply. Stability in the protocol for BTS token holders come from there being predictability in the share supply. Stop diluting, inflating, or otherwise adding insecurity to the mix when it's not necessary.

If you want to do cash dividends then set up a legal cooperative and distribute dividends to all who are members. If you're not going to do this then just burn the transaction fees and by increasing the burn rate when people sell their BTS they'll pay either capital gains or income tax.

Burn means eventually the share supply will reach zero.

If/when BTS experiences large scale adoption the burn rate might surprise folks - BTS may become the most lucrative 'company' in existence.

As the share supply shrinks usability will be adversely impacted.

So rather than one massive share reset 10 years down the road, just program in monthly BTS distributions to maintain the 2bn supply.

Tax implications would need to be understood, but I think most folks would just consider it as taxable income.

Client should make it easy to track BTS distributions for tax purposes.

Quote from: luckybit on November 23, 2014, 05:38:12 PM

Quote from: OldMan on November 23, 2014, 02:50:28 PM

Quote from: luckybit on November 23, 2014, 03:23:13 AM

Quote from: toast on November 22, 2014, 06:01:32 PM
I think this would really help people understand how to make long-term valuations for BTS. We pursue things that help us burn BTS so that we can eventually start getting paid for owning stake in a profitable autonomous system.

The mechanics of the dividend are not important except that it should be in bitUSD or bitGOLD.

For tax reasons I would prefer not to receive any BitUSD dividends. It makes things complicated legally. Just burn the BTS and you have a capital gains tax to pay if the price goes up which is lower than an income tax in some cases.

I prefer burning and I think it's also politically inappropriate to promote BitUSD over all other currencies. BitGOLD might be okay but GOLD is volatile and isn't BTS so it's not actual stake in the system. I do see that it might encourage people to hold BitUSD or BitGold and it has some strong points but I think deflation works for everyone without favoring any political currencies, specific BitAssets, or legal possibilities.

There is a lot of merit in this.

But eventually BTS is going to have to reset the share supply.

So just reset on a monthly basis to maintain a 2bn share supply.

BTS holders recieve BTS deposit on the first of the month; no need for bitUSD/GOLD etc.

I don't see why the share supply has to be reset. In fact I think developers need to stop messing with the share supply. Stability in the protocol for BTS token holders come from there being predictability in the share supply. Stop diluting, inflating, or otherwise adding insecurity to the mix when it's not necessary.

If you want to do cash dividends then set up a legal cooperative and distribute dividends to all who are members. If you're not going to do this then just burn the transaction fees and by increasing the burn rate when people sell their BTS they'll pay either capital gains or income tax.

The only time the share supply would need to be reset is if the price is so high as to inhibit usable granularity.  Meaning, if the price of one BTS gets to about $50,000 or more...

I don't anticipate this problem in the foreseeable future.

EDIT: Actually for market issued assets we probably need much finer granularity than that, so maybe $1000/BTS.

Quote from: OldMan on November 23, 2014, 02:50:28 PM

Quote from: luckybit on November 23, 2014, 03:23:13 AM

Quote from: toast on November 22, 2014, 06:01:32 PM
I think this would really help people understand how to make long-term valuations for BTS. We pursue things that help us burn BTS so that we can eventually start getting paid for owning stake in a profitable autonomous system.

The mechanics of the dividend are not important except that it should be in bitUSD or bitGOLD.

For tax reasons I would prefer not to receive any BitUSD dividends. It makes things complicated legally. Just burn the BTS and you have a capital gains tax to pay if the price goes up which is lower than an income tax in some cases.

I prefer burning and I think it's also politically inappropriate to promote BitUSD over all other currencies. BitGOLD might be okay but GOLD is volatile and isn't BTS so it's not actual stake in the system. I do see that it might encourage people to hold BitUSD or BitGold and it has some strong points but I think deflation works for everyone without favoring any political currencies, specific BitAssets, or legal possibilities.

There is a lot of merit in this.

But eventually BTS is going to have to reset the share supply.

So just reset on a monthly basis to maintain a 2bn share supply.

BTS holders recieve BTS deposit on the first of the month; no need for bitUSD/GOLD etc.

I don't see why the share supply has to be reset. In fact I think developers need to stop messing with the share supply. Stability in the protocol for BTS token holders come from there being predictability in the share supply. Stop diluting, inflating, or otherwise adding insecurity to the mix when it's not necessary.

If you want to do cash dividends then set up a legal cooperative and distribute dividends to all who are members. If you're not going to do this then just burn the transaction fees and by increasing the burn rate when people sell their BTS they'll pay either capital gains or income tax.

Quote from: luckybit on November 23, 2014, 03:23:13 AM

Quote from: toast on November 22, 2014, 06:01:32 PM
I think this would really help people understand how to make long-term valuations for BTS. We pursue things that help us burn BTS so that we can eventually start getting paid for owning stake in a profitable autonomous system.

The mechanics of the dividend are not important except that it should be in bitUSD or bitGOLD.

For tax reasons I would prefer not to receive any BitUSD dividends. It makes things complicated legally. Just burn the BTS and you have a capital gains tax to pay if the price goes up which is lower than an income tax in some cases.

I prefer burning and I think it's also politically inappropriate to promote BitUSD over all other currencies. BitGOLD might be okay but GOLD is volatile and isn't BTS so it's not actual stake in the system. I do see that it might encourage people to hold BitUSD or BitGold and it has some strong points but I think deflation works for everyone without favoring any political currencies, specific BitAssets, or legal possibilities.

There is a lot of merit in this.

But eventually BTS is going to have to reset the share supply.

So just reset on a monthly basis to maintain a 2bn share supply.

BTS holders recieve BTS deposit on the first of the month; no need for bitUSD/GOLD etc.

Quote from: lzr1900 on November 23, 2014, 05:04:59 AM

Quote from: cn-members on November 23, 2014, 05:01:55 AM
Dilution is not actual money ..... so to speak .....

Even if the supply is go below 2bn , the BTS in circulation would be 20 million or so , when you dilute , you're essentially dilute them to the 20 million  ,  not 2bn , so the dilution effect is much bigger on the market price .....

The P/E ratio in cryptos are so high to just consider any dilution actual "income" .

That's why I want to suggest all the delegates don't dump their salary at once , esp. in this market depth and high P/E .

此文啥意思?

没啥意思，就是让烧就烧吧，别用来分红了。

Quote from: cn-members on November 23, 2014, 05:01:55 AM
Dilution is not actual money ..... so to speak .....

Even if the supply is go below 2bn , the BTS in circulation would be 20 million or so , when you dilute , you're essentially dilute them to the 20 million  ,  not 2bn , so the dilution effect is much bigger on the market price .....

The P/E ratio in cryptos are so high to just consider any dilution actual "income" .

That's why I want to suggest all the delegates don't dump their salary at once , esp. in this market depth and high P/E .

此文啥意思?

Dilution is not actual money ..... so to speak .....

Even if the supply is go below 2bn , the BTS in circulation would be 20 million or so , when you dilute , you're essentially dilute them to the 20 million  ,  not 2bn , so the dilution effect is much bigger on the market price .....

The P/E ratio in cryptos are so high to just consider any dilution actual "income" .

That's why I want to suggest all the delegates don't dump their salary at once , esp. in this market depth and high P/E .

Quote from: toast on November 22, 2014, 06:01:32 PM
I think this would really help people understand how to make long-term valuations for BTS. We pursue things that help us burn BTS so that we can eventually start getting paid for owning stake in a profitable autonomous system.

The mechanics of the dividend are not important except that it should be in bitUSD or bitGOLD.

Yes, excellent idea.

When total share supply is burned down to 2bn the burn ends and all fees etc. are distributed on the 1st of the month to BTS holders.

Instant monthly income. Would be huge!

Quote from: luckybit on November 23, 2014, 03:23:13 AM

Quote from: toast on November 22, 2014, 06:01:32 PM
I think this would really help people understand how to make long-term valuations for BTS. We pursue things that help us burn BTS so that we can eventually start getting paid for owning stake in a profitable autonomous system.

The mechanics of the dividend are not important except that it should be in bitUSD or bitGOLD.

For tax reasons I would prefer not to receive any BitUSD dividends. It makes things complicated legally. Just burn the BTS and you have a capital gains tax to pay if the price goes up which is lower than an income tax in some cases.

I prefer burning and I think it's also politically inappropriate to promote BitUSD over all other currencies. BitGOLD might be okay but GOLD is volatile and isn't BTS so it's not actual stake in the system. I do see that it might encourage people to hold BitUSD or BitGold and it has some strong points but I think deflation works for everyone without favoring any political currencies, specific BitAssets, or legal possibilities.

This is the overwhelming biggest consideration in the U.S.  Do other countries have similar distinctions between dividends as immediately taxable Ordinary Income and burning to produce Capital Gains that are not taxed until the asset is sold?

Quote from: toast on November 22, 2014, 06:01:32 PM
I think this would really help people understand how to make long-term valuations for BTS. We pursue things that help us burn BTS so that we can eventually start getting paid for owning stake in a profitable autonomous system.

The mechanics of the dividend are not important except that it should be in bitUSD or bitGOLD.

For tax reasons I would prefer not to receive any BitUSD dividends. It makes things complicated legally. Just burn the BTS and you have a capital gains tax to pay if the price goes up which is lower than an income tax in some cases.

I prefer burning and I think it's also politically inappropriate to promote BitUSD over all other currencies. BitGOLD might be okay but GOLD is volatile and isn't BTS so it's not actual stake in the system. I do see that it might encourage people to hold BitUSD or BitGold and it has some strong points but I think deflation works for everyone without favoring any political currencies, specific BitAssets, or legal possibilities.

+5%

If market capital below 2B
    Exchange all fees to bitUSD or bitGOLD
    Distribute as dividend to BTS holders
else
    Burn all fees

This seems like unnecessary complexity to me, honestly.  Anyone who wants to hold BTS should be able to figure out what burning fees means for them.  If you just want to use it for payments and savings without that minimal level of understanding, you should be using bitAssets and just getting interest instead anyway.

Supply issues I don't think will really be relevant for the foreseeable future, but I'd support doing a split and doubling all BTS balances on the chain any time the total supply drops under a billion.  :P

Where can I read about why the supply is changing?