Quote from: mdj on May 29, 2015, 02:22:16 PM

Quote from: Troglodactyl on May 29, 2015, 12:52:06 PM

Quote from: mdj on May 29, 2015, 11:52:16 AM

Quote from: Troglodactyl on May 29, 2015, 03:21:57 AM
It looks like MaidSafe may have some really cool tech, but I haven't seen anything likely to make their tokens increase in value.  Mostly they seem to be building "common good" infrastructure with no idea how to align the incentives properly.  It would be cool if they partnered with us: we have the model to maintain that infrastructure development, but they seem to be ahead on DHT routing and related network services, as well as data hosting.

I disagree:
https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/what-gives-safecoin-value-and-differentiates-it-from-altcoins/411/18

My crypto portfolio now is pretty much all Bitshares, Maidsafe and Bitcoin.

I'm not saying SafeCoin will be worthless, just that I don't see why the value would increase significantly.  SafeCoin is backed by storage and network resources, and MaidSafe is designed to make access to those resources as cheap as possible by greatly reducing market friction.

There are at least three options with MaidSafe:
1. Buy hard drives and network resources to earn SafeCoin.
2. Buy SafeCoin and wait for it to appreciate.
3. Invest elsewhere and wait for MaidSafe to save you money by making storage cheaper.

Option 1 seems like a bad idea, because until saturation, you'll be undercut by people with currently wasted resources, and after saturation you'll be undercut by larger farms due to economies of scale.

Option 2 will only be profitable if the value of the resources commanded by SafeCoin increases faster than the supply of SafeCoin, which seems contrary to the MaidSafe design.  Or if speculative value dominates backing based value in SafeCoin.

That leaves me really excited about MaidSafe, but entirely unmotivated to buy any SafeCoin.  I'd like to want to buy SafeCoin, so please explain if I'm in error.

You raise some fair points however my understanding that is on day one, 30% will have already been allocated which leads to a much higher level of speculative value:

Cap: 4.3 billion
5% investors
10% Crowdsale
5% Held by the Maidsafe foundation to allocate to core developers.
10% Allocated by the network to developers who create applications that people use.

The other 70% will be rewarded slowly by the network.

You mention in point 3 about storage being made cheaper - I think if Maidsafe is successful it will be so much more than a decentralised dropbox. You will see massive applications - initially it will be the illicit ones that cause the network effect to really take off (There will be streaming/sharing sites that remove the need for torrenting and silk road'esque sites will be reborn). Eventually there will be all kinds of sites replacing the normal web but ensuring privacy.

The current valuation of this "new internet" network is ~$70million (based on marketcap of all coins that will eventually be minted). That's a spec in the ocean compared to the current internet. I know this is not an easy comparison because the current internet isn't monotised in the same way but to me it's a signal that things could get much much bigger.

Ok, I see another potential issue here.  If 70% is being gradually minted to pay resource providers, that means the 30% holders are effectively subsidizing the resource providers with their losses (or decreased gains) do to dilution.  Speculatively, one might hope that subsidizing network services with stockpiled investor money to make them artificially cheap would build the brand and drive up the shareprice, but that's pretty speculative.  Once the infrastructure is in place the actual business model seems like it should be simply selling resources to the network, and buying resources from the network.  The currency used for those transactions isn't terribly relevant except for the need to compensate the original developers, and those who maintain the system.

Quote from: mirrax on May 29, 2015, 06:48:03 AM
Poloniex seems to be provider of good liquidity.
I think some of the pumps are initiated in fact on polo not on btc38.com

ya i was liking polo until the kyc kicked in, now i don't use them any longer, and i'm assuming that's why ander isn't.

Quote from: Troglodactyl on May 29, 2015, 12:52:06 PM

Quote from: mdj on May 29, 2015, 11:52:16 AM

Quote from: Troglodactyl on May 29, 2015, 03:21:57 AM
It looks like MaidSafe may have some really cool tech, but I haven't seen anything likely to make their tokens increase in value.  Mostly they seem to be building "common good" infrastructure with no idea how to align the incentives properly.  It would be cool if they partnered with us: we have the model to maintain that infrastructure development, but they seem to be ahead on DHT routing and related network services, as well as data hosting.

I disagree:
https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/what-gives-safecoin-value-and-differentiates-it-from-altcoins/411/18

My crypto portfolio now is pretty much all Bitshares, Maidsafe and Bitcoin.

I'm not saying SafeCoin will be worthless, just that I don't see why the value would increase significantly.  SafeCoin is backed by storage and network resources, and MaidSafe is designed to make access to those resources as cheap as possible by greatly reducing market friction.

There are at least three options with MaidSafe:
1. Buy hard drives and network resources to earn SafeCoin.
2. Buy SafeCoin and wait for it to appreciate.
3. Invest elsewhere and wait for MaidSafe to save you money by making storage cheaper.

Option 1 seems like a bad idea, because until saturation, you'll be undercut by people with currently wasted resources, and after saturation you'll be undercut by larger farms due to economies of scale.

Option 2 will only be profitable if the value of the resources commanded by SafeCoin increases faster than the supply of SafeCoin, which seems contrary to the MaidSafe design.  Or if speculative value dominates backing based value in SafeCoin.

That leaves me really excited about MaidSafe, but entirely unmotivated to buy any SafeCoin.  I'd like to want to buy SafeCoin, so please explain if I'm in error.

You raise some fair points however my understanding that is on day one, 30% will have already been allocated which leads to a much higher level of speculative value:

Cap: 4.3 billion
5% investors
10% Crowdsale
5% Held by the Maidsafe foundation to allocate to core developers.
10% Allocated by the network to developers who create applications that people use.

The other 70% will be rewarded slowly by the network.

You mention in point 3 about storage being made cheaper - I think if Maidsafe is successful it will be so much more than a decentralised dropbox. You will see massive applications - initially it will be the illicit ones that cause the network effect to really take off (There will be streaming/sharing sites that remove the need for torrenting and silk road'esque sites will be reborn). Eventually there will be all kinds of sites replacing the normal web but ensuring privacy.

The current valuation of this "new internet" network is ~$70million (based on marketcap of all coins that will eventually be minted). That's a spec in the ocean compared to the current internet. I know this is not an easy comparison because the current internet isn't monotised in the same way but to me it's a signal that things could get much much bigger.

Quote from: mdj on May 29, 2015, 11:52:16 AM

Quote from: Troglodactyl on May 29, 2015, 03:21:57 AM
It looks like MaidSafe may have some really cool tech, but I haven't seen anything likely to make their tokens increase in value.  Mostly they seem to be building "common good" infrastructure with no idea how to align the incentives properly.  It would be cool if they partnered with us: we have the model to maintain that infrastructure development, but they seem to be ahead on DHT routing and related network services, as well as data hosting.

I disagree:
https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/what-gives-safecoin-value-and-differentiates-it-from-altcoins/411/18

My crypto portfolio now is pretty much all Bitshares, Maidsafe and Bitcoin.

I'm not saying SafeCoin will be worthless, just that I don't see why the value would increase significantly.  SafeCoin is backed by storage and network resources, and MaidSafe is designed to make access to those resources as cheap as possible by greatly reducing market friction.

There are at least three options with MaidSafe:
1. Buy hard drives and network resources to earn SafeCoin.
2. Buy SafeCoin and wait for it to appreciate.
3. Invest elsewhere and wait for MaidSafe to save you money by making storage cheaper.

Option 1 seems like a bad idea, because until saturation, you'll be undercut by people with currently wasted resources, and after saturation you'll be undercut by larger farms due to economies of scale.

Option 2 will only be profitable if the value of the resources commanded by SafeCoin increases faster than the supply of SafeCoin, which seems contrary to the MaidSafe design.  Or if speculative value dominates backing based value in SafeCoin.

That leaves me really excited about MaidSafe, but entirely unmotivated to buy any SafeCoin.  I'd like to want to buy SafeCoin, so please explain if I'm in error.

Quote from: Troglodactyl on May 29, 2015, 03:21:57 AM
It looks like MaidSafe may have some really cool tech, but I haven't seen anything likely to make their tokens increase in value.  Mostly they seem to be building "common good" infrastructure with no idea how to align the incentives properly.  It would be cool if they partnered with us: we have the model to maintain that infrastructure development, but they seem to be ahead on DHT routing and related network services, as well as data hosting.

I disagree:
https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/what-gives-safecoin-value-and-differentiates-it-from-altcoins/411/18

My crypto portfolio now is pretty much all Bitshares, Maidsafe and Bitcoin.

Poloniex seems to be provider of good liquidity.
I think some of the pumps are initiated in fact on polo not on btc38.com

Quote from: Ander on May 28, 2015, 10:32:08 PM
Too bad neither btc38 or bter has it.  It has definitely underperformed this month, while many others have been rocketing.  I'd consider buying some but, not available on the exchanges I use.

I'm going to assume you're not using polo for a reason, so have you tried... https://masterxchange.com/market.php?currency=maid?

It looks like MaidSafe may have some really cool tech, but I haven't seen anything likely to make their tokens increase in value.  Mostly they seem to be building "common good" infrastructure with no idea how to align the incentives properly.  It would be cool if they partnered with us: we have the model to maintain that infrastructure development, but they seem to be ahead on DHT routing and related network services, as well as data hosting.

Too bad neither btc38 or bter has it.  It has definitely underperformed this month, while many others have been rocketing.  I'd consider buying some but, not available on the exchanges I use.

Quote from: mirrax on May 28, 2015, 10:16:00 AM

Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 28, 2015, 01:09:49 AM

Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 06:08:12 AM
I would be surprised if it got below 7k myself.

color me surprised. perhaps, as we approach the maidsafe release, this is the same phenomenon we experienced leading up to bitshares 1.0.

hmm, is there any ETA for maidsafe release?

for clarification ...

QuoteWe're releasing 4th component of the network in as many weeks. Keep the faith, getting close. - @maidsafe

Quote from: mirrax on May 28, 2015, 10:16:00 AM

Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 28, 2015, 01:09:49 AM

Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 06:08:12 AM
I would be surprised if it got below 7k myself.

color me surprised. perhaps, as we approach the maidsafe release, this is the same phenomenon we experienced leading up to bitshares 1.0.

hmm, is there any ETA for maidsafe release?

Probably sometimes at 2017-2020

Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 28, 2015, 01:09:49 AM

Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 06:08:12 AM
I would be surprised if it got below 7k myself.

color me surprised. perhaps, as we approach the maidsafe release, this is the same phenomenon we experienced leading up to bitshares 1.0.

hmm, is there any ETA for maidsafe release?

Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 06:08:12 AM
I would be surprised if it got below 7k myself.

color me surprised. perhaps, as we approach the maidsafe release, this is the same phenomenon we experienced leading up to bitshares 1.0.

Quote from: mirrax on May 22, 2015, 05:30:40 AM

Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 01:54:37 AM

Wake me up when we break 5000

I would be surprised if it got below 7k myself.

Quote from: Tuck Fheman on May 22, 2015, 01:54:37 AM

Wake me up when we break 5000