$20 or above/XTS sounds fair enough but assuming $7.50 / BTS seriously....  have some descent respect on DPOS.

Close to...

edit1. I will buy the difference if somebody takes the whole bet.
... and those that can take me on this for sure ...will most like not do so.

Quote from: Simeon II on July 03, 2014, 02:23:43 AM

Quote from: Empirical1 on July 03, 2014, 01:42:07 AM

Quote from: Zeus on July 02, 2014, 06:44:17 PM
Up to the 28th of Feb 1 PTS = c1.3 XTS and 1 PTS was ranging between $15 - $20 if I remember correctly... 

Therefore 1 XTS at that time should have been c$11 - $16.

The market has valued Bitshares BACK THEN a market cap of $44 mil - $64 mil before even having a finished product.

After all these delays and all these amazing improvements with DPOS. The initial market cap of Bitshares shouldn't be less than at least $80 mil and I think I am pessimistic here...Otherwise our long term investment in Bitshares was not a good one and we should have invested in NXT (that doesn't make sense sorry)

Concluding 1 XTS should not be less than $20 each (calculation based on 4 million PTS / AGS).

I looked at coinmarketcap and PTS was valued at $25 million before the snapshot and $10 million after.
As PTS makes up 50% of XTS. I would think that means the market was valuing BitShares X @ circa $30 Million?

Is that right?

If that's the case, I think the market should be valuing it at, at least

$30 Million divided by 2 Billion XTS = $0.015 per share.

(Or $7.5 x amount of BTS you have listed on AGS explorer)

Obviously the valuation should be much higher now for multiple reasons, personally I'm kind of hoping there will be some people that need to sell because it's been a while since the snapshot and I want to buy moarrrrr...  :)

Leaving aside that you math is wrong ...with just a few decimal positions.

Do you want to make a bet?

Tell me what % of BTS XT you want to buy at $30 Mil market capitalization. (1% will be worth about $300,000; 0.1% will be $30,000 etc.; 0.001% will be $300)

The bet is the following:
- You will publish the percentage you want to buy at $30 Mil market cap. Then you will transfer the amount to an escrow that we both agree on.
- I will send the # shares equal to the % you wanted to buy (for you to withdraw) and I will get all the money in the escrow.
-Additionally, I will transfer your shares  in 15 days or less after BTS X become liquid.

Sounds fair?

P.S. The bet is open to anybody having $30 mil capitalization expectations and wanting to buy less than 1%.

Do you really own 1%?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Empirical1 on July 03, 2014, 01:42:07 AM

Quote from: Zeus on July 02, 2014, 06:44:17 PM
Up to the 28th of Feb 1 PTS = c1.3 XTS and 1 PTS was ranging between $15 - $20 if I remember correctly... 

Therefore 1 XTS at that time should have been c$11 - $16.

The market has valued Bitshares BACK THEN a market cap of $44 mil - $64 mil before even having a finished product.

After all these delays and all these amazing improvements with DPOS. The initial market cap of Bitshares shouldn't be less than at least $80 mil and I think I am pessimistic here...Otherwise our long term investment in Bitshares was not a good one and we should have invested in NXT (that doesn't make sense sorry)

Concluding 1 XTS should not be less than $20 each (calculation based on 4 million PTS / AGS).

I looked at coinmarketcap and PTS was valued at $25 million before the snapshot and $10 million after.
As PTS makes up 50% of XTS. I would think that means the market was valuing BitShares X @ circa $30 Million?

Is that right?

If that's the case, I think the market should be valuing it at, at least

$30 Million divided by 2 Billion XTS = $0.015 per share.

(Or $7.5 x amount of BTS you have listed on AGS explorer)

Obviously the valuation should be much higher now for multiple reasons, personally I'm kind of hoping there will be some people that need to sell because it's been a while since the snapshot and I want to buy moarrrrr...  :)

Leaving aside that you math is wrong ...with just a few decimal positions.

Do you want to make a bet?

Tell me what % of BTS XT you want to buy at $30 Mil market capitalization. (1% will be worth about $300,000; 0.1% will be $30,000 etc.; 0.001% will be $300)

The bet is the following:
- You will publish the percentage you want to buy at $30 Mil market cap. Then you will transfer the amount to an escrow that we both agree on.
- I will send the # shares equal to the % you wanted to buy (for you to withdraw) and I will get all the money in the escrow.
-Additionally, I will transfer your shares  in 15 days or less after BTS X become liquid.

Sounds fair?

P.S. The bet is open to anybody having $30 mil capitalization expectations and wanting to buy less than 1%.

Quote from: Zeus on July 02, 2014, 06:44:17 PM
Up to the 28th of Feb 1 PTS = c1.3 XTS and 1 PTS was ranging between $15 - $20 if I remember correctly... 

Therefore 1 XTS at that time should have been c$11 - $16.

The market has valued Bitshares BACK THEN a market cap of $44 mil - $64 mil before even having a finished product.

After all these delays and all these amazing improvements with DPOS. The initial market cap of Bitshares shouldn't be less than at least $80 mil and I think I am pessimistic here...Otherwise our long term investment in Bitshares was not a good one and we should have invested in NXT (that doesn't make sense sorry)

Concluding 1 XTS should not be less than $20 each (calculation based on 4 million PTS / AGS).

I looked at coinmarketcap and PTS was valued at $25 million before the snapshot and $10 million after.
As PTS makes up 50% of XTS. I would think that means the market was valuing BitShares X @ circa $30 Million?

Is that right?

If that's the case, I think the market should be valuing it at, at least

$30 Million divided by 2 Billion XTS = $0.015 per share.

(Or $7.5 x amount of BTS you have listed on AGS explorer)

Obviously the valuation should be much higher now for multiple reasons, personally I'm kind of hoping there will be some people that need to sell because it's been a while since the snapshot and I want to buy moarrrrr...  :)

Quote from: AdamBLevine on July 02, 2014, 04:30:16 PM

Quote from: liondani on July 02, 2014, 04:20:15 PM

Quote from: AdamBLevine on July 02, 2014, 03:56:16 PM
Right, but the way many of the larger indexes calculate are based on total market cap as represented by (current price) x (total available supply).

I'm not talking about any actual change, i'm asking if this change was made to maximize placement on market cap coin leaderboards?

All coins will be available from the beginning, so nothing to do with marketcap.

http://coinmarketcap.com/
Look at NXT vs DRK

It makes no difference to market cap. XTS is just using a smaller unit of measurement.
An ounce of gold divided into two pieces will have same market cap as an ounce of gold divided into ten pieces.

To artificially inflate your market cap & so that you appear higher on coinmarketcap you have to get them to multiply the share price by more coins than there actually are.

-So for example Ripple had an artificially high market cap for a while as their share price was being multiplied by 100 Billion when only a 5-10 billion had actually been released.
- Auroracoin also had an artificially high market cap for a while as their share price was being multiplied by the total amount of coins there would be after all mining (and a full airdrop I believe.) When actually there were only a few thousand that had been released via mining at the time and no airdrop yet.

Darkcoin's & NXT valuations are fair relative to the amount of coins they have mined and released respectively.

(NXT I believe has some large initial whales so it's possible they could be withholding a market cap distorting amount from the market. However that is a separate issue, but whether NXT chose to divide their company into a Billion or a million shares initially as their standard unit of measurement makes no difference.)

Bitcoin for example has considered making the 'MilliBit' the new standard unit of measure, in which case there would be 13  billion Millibits, but making this change would not directly effect Bitcoins overall CAP.

Same question.
bm,do you mean system generate new share to pay delegates instead of paying from tx fee

Quote from: bitcoinerS on July 03, 2014, 12:27:54 AM

Quote from: bytemaster on July 03, 2014, 12:15:16 AM
to remove price fixing the rate of destruction is now in the hands of shareholders

I did not understand this.. How is rate of destruction of shares related to price fixing?

Quote from: bytemaster on July 03, 2014, 12:15:16 AM
to remove price fixing the rate of destruction is now in the hands of shareholders

I did not understand this.. How is rate of destruction of shares related to price fixing?

Quote from: sfinder on July 02, 2014, 09:37:28 PM
Just wondering if Bm is still going to use 2B BIP to map 4M XTS(bts)? or this design has been changed.

notes: 1% of XTS will be destroyed annually   according to the I3 's  whitepaper

Yes, that was original design but in an effort to remove price fixing the rate of destruction is now in the hands of shareholders who select the delegates and the delegates determine the burn rate.

Just wondering if Bm is still going to use 2B BIP to map 4M XTS(bts)? or this design has been changed.

notes: 1% of XTS will be destroyed annually   according to the I3 's  whitepaper

Up to the 28th of Feb 1 PTS = c1.3 XTS and 1 PTS was ranging between $15 - $20 if I remember correctly... 

Therefore 1 XTS at that time should have been c$11 - $16.

The market has valued Bitshares BACK THEN a market cap of $44 mil - $64 mil before even having a finished product.

After all these delays and all these amazing improvements with DPOS. The initial market cap of Bitshares shouldn't be less than at least $80 mil and I think I am pessimistic here...Otherwise our long term investment in Bitshares was not a good one and we should have invested in NXT (that doesn't make sense sorry)

Concluding 1 XTS should not be less than $20 each (calculation based on 4 million PTS / AGS).

Quote from: liondani on July 02, 2014, 04:20:15 PM

Quote from: AdamBLevine on July 02, 2014, 03:56:16 PM
Right, but the way many of the larger indexes calculate are based on total market cap as represented by (current price) x (total available supply).

I'm not talking about any actual change, i'm asking if this change was made to maximize placement on market cap coin leaderboards?

All coins will be available from the beginning, so nothing to do with marketcap.

http://coinmarketcap.com/
Look at NXT vs DRK

Quote from: AdamBLevine on July 02, 2014, 03:56:16 PM
Right, but the way many of the larger indexes calculate are based on total market cap as represented by (current price) x (total available supply).

I'm not talking about any actual change, i'm asking if this change was made to maximize placement on market cap coin leaderboards?

All coins will be available from the beginning, so nothing to do with marketcap. It doesn't matter with how much coin's you will start, at least theoretical.
Practical it matters like toast and other's mentioned and it has to do with usability and market psychology...

If you ask me 2 billion coins is a brilliant idea....
I give you one psychology example:

let's say 1 XTS = $ 0.03  Many investors would make the conclusion that it is still undervalued because for example NXT has a value of $0.06 and the majority maybe thing XTS=NXT or more... so they will buy until the price reach
$0.06 or more... Guess what? When it happens we will have double the NXT market cap ....because they have only 1 billion coins (not 2)... :)  Many investors are looking only the price (not the market cap)...

just random thoughts  :P

Quote from: bytemaster on July 02, 2014, 03:57:11 PM

Quote from: vlight on July 02, 2014, 03:54:15 PM
Wait, so registering a delegate will cost 20 XTS out of 2 billion, or 20 XTS out of 4 million ?

Registering a delegate costs a variable amount proportional to the amount of revenue one could hope to earn over 2 full weeks of operation.  This changes as the transaction fees change.

So, delegates will have an incentive to set high pay rate, at least at the beginning.

Btw, what is the pay rate, so that delegate will not dilute the network? 10?

Quote from: bytemaster on July 02, 2014, 03:56:08 PM

Quote from: AdamBLevine on July 02, 2014, 02:32:03 PM

Quote from: bytemaster on July 02, 2014, 02:19:19 PM
There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like  2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:

1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.

When was the number of shares increased from 4 million BTS to 2 billion?  Any reason outside of an artificially inflated market cap?

Yes, because in my opinion prices like    1000 XTS are easier to deal with in the early days than prices of .001 after it gains bitcoin level acceptance.

Ok