Author Topic: Can we Clone OmniBazaar?  (Read 4690 times)

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Offline eagleeye

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Recently read a post about Omnibazaar and how they are using the BitShares Toolkit but not honoring social consensus...

Is there a way to clone this and Sharedrop it to PTS/AGS (or even BTS?)

I can't help but think that the more we let these things happen without finding ways to mitigate the precedent it sets, the worse off we are.  We can't directly attack it (as some have proposed) as it effectively uses our community resources to advertise it (remember negative attention is still attention).  So we have the option to ignore it....which seems a 50/50 toss up.  Or we can take their work and set the project right by giving it to a working network of people who honor the social consensus...thus taking significant attention away from the original clone that chooses not to honor social consensus, and making it the second mover... 

Please discuss.
you can clone:
- ideas
- code
- blockchains

you can not clone
- network effect
- community
- funding

The letter is strong over here! .. not over there  8)

Mind share is more powerful then network effect.  This is what Ethereum has and why we must hurry the up.

Offline fuzzy

I think the plan has always been thay we will eventually run a native "bitbazaar" through our full nodes. Any research done in this area by omnibazaar is great for us; we will copy anything good they come up with and implement it on our own blockchain.

Great point.  So the next question is...is there a limit to how many chains a DAC can include?

There are temporary technical limits. But overcoming them is just a matter of investing enough into R&D. Once we reach a point where scaling development will become important we will have more than enough capital to invest into it.

So then it brings us to the next question.  Will chains be like plugins, downloaded apps...etc or will they be statically assigned to a SuperDAC?

For instance, will a user in one jurisdiction be able to download a specific form of DNS chain and bypass one deemed "illegal" in their jurisdiction...thereby having a choice between one of many legal chains (I Suspect this is the case)?  In this case, BTS would be the network and users would customize their experience using approved chains...or might fly under the radar using darkweb style chains.

Or are we looking at an instance where SuperDACs like BTS will only have one chain each and there will be multiple versions that act on their own to appeal to those in specific jurisdictions? 

For instance, a region-specific BTS SuperDAC for China...one for the U.S., one that fits the legal framework established by Germany, Russia, India...etc and they talk to eachother similar to how the internet exists today?

Interesting thought exercises.

Breaking off specific features at will, is probably going to be possible and relatively easy to implement (I don't actually know if this is true, but it's my guess given how it is all open source). In the long run though, the DAC will not have to follow any rules, it will only restrict things that shareholders deem unprofitable, such as child porn or assassinations or other things that will give massively bad publicity. So unless a person is looking for those things he/she will not have to use alternate blockchains.

This is a place where there is little certainty.  I am no so sure, though I do see your line of reasoning :)

At present, I hope it is like this but feel it may be a little less straight forward...at least during the early years of this tech. When it reaches maximum adoption though...those million-mask-marchers will likely force what you are talking about to be true.  So interesting...
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Offline Rune

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I think the plan has always been thay we will eventually run a native "bitbazaar" through our full nodes. Any research done in this area by omnibazaar is great for us; we will copy anything good they come up with and implement it on our own blockchain.

Great point.  So the next question is...is there a limit to how many chains a DAC can include?

There are temporary technical limits. But overcoming them is just a matter of investing enough into R&D. Once we reach a point where scaling development will become important we will have more than enough capital to invest into it.

So then it brings us to the next question.  Will chains be like plugins, downloaded apps...etc or will they be statically assigned to a SuperDAC?

For instance, will a user in one jurisdiction be able to download a specific form of DNS chain and bypass one deemed "illegal" in their jurisdiction...thereby having a choice between one of many legal chains (I Suspect this is the case)?  In this case, BTS would be the network and users would customize their experience using approved chains...or might fly under the radar using darkweb style chains.

Or are we looking at an instance where SuperDACs like BTS will only have one chain each and there will be multiple versions that act on their own to appeal to those in specific jurisdictions? 

For instance, a region-specific BTS SuperDAC for China...one for the U.S., one that fits the legal framework established by Germany, Russia, India...etc and they talk to eachother similar to how the internet exists today?

Interesting thought exercises.

Breaking off specific features at will, is probably going to be possible and relatively easy to implement (I don't actually know if this is true, but it's my guess given how it is all open source). In the long run though, the DAC will not have to follow any rules, it will only restrict things that shareholders deem unprofitable, such as child porn or assassinations or other things that will give massively bad publicity. So unless a person is looking for those things he/she will not have to use alternate blockchains.

Offline fuzzy

I think this is a perfect example that shows the flaws of keeping PTS alive with the hope that third-party DACs will snapshot it. I expect all but a small minority of third-party DACs will ignore the social consensus because they will see little value in getting the support of that community compared to just selling off that portion of the stake for more resources to build their vision. That is the reason why this community needs to focus all of their efforts into BTS and try to build up its network effect as soon as possible. It is all about the battle for network effect and community. If we are smart, we will take any worthwhile innovations developed by the competitors and add it to the BTS chain. Hopefully, the good devs working on these projects will realize this threat and rather than struggle to compete with us in the market will instead choose to join us and get paid as a delegate to build the software for BTS. This of course assumes that we can grow our network effect faster than the competitors can, and it also assumes that the vision of these devs is compatible enough with our own (and that the devs are actually talented in the first place) that we would be willing to pay them through delegate dilution pay to build the software.


This is going to happen no matter what.  People will split off of this community when big decisions are made.  The weak hands will go to alternatives...
In my humble opinions, PTS should be around PRECISELY to help capture these people before guys like this one do...
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Offline arhag

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I think this is a perfect example that shows the flaws of keeping PTS alive with the hope that third-party DACs will snapshot it. I expect all but a small minority of third-party DACs will ignore the social consensus because they will see little value in getting the support of that community compared to just selling off that portion of the stake for more resources to build their vision. That is the reason why this community needs to focus all of their efforts into BTS and try to build up its network effect as soon as possible. It is all about the battle for network effect and community. If we are smart, we will take any worthwhile innovations developed by the competitors and add it to the BTS chain. Hopefully, the good devs working on these projects will realize this threat and rather than struggle to compete with us in the market will instead choose to join us and get paid as a delegate to build the software for BTS. This of course assumes that we can grow our network effect faster than the competitors can, and it also assumes that the vision of these devs is compatible enough with our own (and that the devs are actually talented in the first place) that we would be willing to pay them through delegate dilution pay to build the software.

Offline fuzzy

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=835575.80

The only way is to make the case, concisely and without FUD/Resentment/Bias, that they are shooting themselves in the foot and that they are less likely to succeed in this way.

There are many communities (I already see NEM represented here) who seem interested in helping.  Upon reading and trying to think about the comments like I am a bitcoiner..I find myself thinking that the community response is hostile.  If I am in a heavily invested member in a 2.0 community I see myself thinking it as a great opportunity to make an ally against a common threat (bitshares). Seeing him being called him greedy just makes this perception worse.

One point you should focus on if you are going to focus on anything at all, imho, should be that they do not openly thank the bitshares community for doing all the legwork.  They simply say "it is obvious we are cloning btsx".  In fact...the most damning point is that they seem to refuse to openly give credit where it is due.  Even in creative commons licensing it is expected to give credit to the source....this is the type of thing that will make competitors want to stay away if we make it a point of focusing on that.  Speak lightly about "honoring the social consensus" but say that this is a very small thing compared to the blatant disrespect that they show by not honoring our sacrifices as a community with the inclusion of a simple "powered by bitshares" logo. 

In this way, at the very least they are advertising our tech...which should honestly be done whether or not  they choose a different funding campaign.  If they don't you have the high ground...if they give in and put the logo there it makes competitors steer clear because they dont want to support something that is so obviously superior to their own tech and sports the logo of their superior competitor. 

Think strategically.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 09:59:00 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline fuzzy

I think the plan has always been thay we will eventually run a native "bitbazaar" through our full nodes. Any research done in this area by omnibazaar is great for us; we will copy anything good they come up with and implement it on our own blockchain.

Great point.  So the next question is...is there a limit to how many chains a DAC can include?

There are temporary technical limits. But overcoming them is just a matter of investing enough into R&D. Once we reach a point where scaling development will become important we will have more than enough capital to invest into it.

So then it brings us to the next question.  Will chains be like plugins, downloaded apps...etc or will they be statically assigned to a SuperDAC?

For instance, will a user in one jurisdiction be able to download a specific form of DNS chain and bypass one deemed "illegal" in their jurisdiction...thereby having a choice between one of many legal chains (I Suspect this is the case)?  In this case, BTS would be the network and users would customize their experience using approved chains...or might fly under the radar using darkweb style chains.

Or are we looking at an instance where SuperDACs like BTS will only have one chain each and there will be multiple versions that act on their own to appeal to those in specific jurisdictions? 

For instance, a region-specific BTS SuperDAC for China...one for the U.S., one that fits the legal framework established by Germany, Russia, India...etc and they talk to eachother similar to how the internet exists today?

Interesting thought exercises.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 09:08:11 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline Rune

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I think the plan has always been thay we will eventually run a native "bitbazaar" through our full nodes. Any research done in this area by omnibazaar is great for us; we will copy anything good they come up with and implement it on our own blockchain.

Great point.  So the next question is...is there a limit to how many chains a DAC can include?

There are temporary technical limits. But overcoming them is just a matter of investing enough into R&D. Once we reach a point where scaling development will become important we will have more than enough capital to invest into it.

Offline CLains

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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=835575.80

The only way is to make the case, concisely and without FUD/Resentment/Bias, that they are shooting themselves in the foot and that they are less likely to succeed in this way.

Offline fuzzy

I think the plan has always been thay we will eventually run a native "bitbazaar" through our full nodes. Any research done in this area by omnibazaar is great for us; we will copy anything good they come up with and implement it on our own blockchain.

Great point.  So the next question is...is there a limit to how many chains a DAC can include?
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Offline jsidhu

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I like openbazaar better
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Offline bytemaster

I think the plan has always been thay we will eventually run a native "bitbazaar" through our full nodes. Any research done in this area by omnibazaar is great for us; we will copy anything good they come up with and implement it on our own blockchain.

Exactly!   If they come up with something worth while it will be integrated with BTS and no need to create yet another chain.
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Offline luckybit

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Recently read a post about Omnibazaar and how they are using the BitShares Toolkit but not honoring social consensus...

Is there a way to clone this and Sharedrop it to PTS/AGS (or even BTS?)

I can't help but think that the more we let these things happen without finding ways to mitigate the precedent it sets, the worse off we are.  We can't directly attack it (as some have proposed) as it effectively uses our community resources to advertise it (remember negative attention is still attention).  So we have the option to ignore it....which seems a 50/50 toss up.  Or we can take their work and set the project right by giving it to a working network of people who honor the social consensus...thus taking significant attention away from the original clone that chooses not to honor social consensus, and making it the second mover... 

Please discuss.

This is a good idea but if we clone it then which developers are going to maintain the clone?
If we have developers willing to maintain the clone then why not? Otherwise let them do it because it is an inherently risky venture and I see no obvious benefit to being first.
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Offline Rune

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I think the plan has always been thay we will eventually run a native "bitbazaar" through our full nodes. Any research done in this area by omnibazaar is great for us; we will copy anything good they come up with and implement it on our own blockchain.

Offline ticklebiscuit

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No public tip of the hat and the cold shoulder.....bizzare.

People still don't get how competition in this market works.

Heh?

no acknowledgement for using Bitshares tech and underappreciation for all the people who would have been incentivized to make their project a success...

By far not all people...especially other devs.  Many of them understand and want to compete. Let this be the perfect case for keeping a neutral PTS and AGS alive and well so we can continue to get more DACs honoring social consensus online.