Author Topic: The reverse acquisition attack: Buying the bitcoin POW to DPOS hardfork  (Read 12916 times)

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Offline Ander

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Bitcoiners need to know this attack vector exists. If we don't perform this attack someone else will and the bitcoin market cap will be gobbled up by another coin that will then outcompetes us and destroy us. If it's possible for the bitcoin system to actually prevent it from succeeding with high probability, then great. But if not then it is not a good idea to ignore such an obvious vulnerability. Simply hoping that no one will learn of an attack like this is a terrible security strategy.

If someone tried this attack it would almost certainly fail.

The only result of pointing this attack out to them is to make them hate the messenger.  Literally all you are doing is hurting bitshares brand in the eyes of bitcoin holders.
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Offline eNORm

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I think I some what get the idea of the "attack", but maybe Bitcoin will evolve and adapt. It's not like TCP/IP is the best solution either, if you think about evolution of protocols.

Offline Rune

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/r/bitcoin reply

/r/Bitcoin/comments/2m3toy/bitcoin_attack_in_the_making/

Indeed.

And, literally the only result that can come out of this thread is that more bitcoin people hate us and will never buy bitshares.

Bitcoiners need to know this attack vector exists. If we don't perform this attack someone else will and the bitcoin market cap will be gobbled up by another coin that will then outcompetes us and destroy us. If it's possible for the bitcoin system to actually prevent it from succeeding with high probability, then great. But if not then it is not a good idea to ignore such an obvious vulnerability. Simply hoping that no one will learn of an attack like this is a terrible security strategy.

Offline xeroc

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/r/bitcoin reply

/r/Bitcoin/comments/2m3toy/bitcoin_attack_in_the_making/

Indeed.

And, literally the only result that can come out of this thread is that more bitcoin people hate us and will never buy bitshares.
I'd say: no one over at reddit read the whole post .. not to mention the whole discussion afterwards ..

From my understanding of Bitcoin .. the proposal is a valid attack vector for bitcoin .. no matter what r/bitcoin says ..

Offline Rune

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/r/bitcoin reply

/r/Bitcoin/comments/2m3toy/bitcoin_attack_in_the_making/

This attack vector has always existed since it is inherent to POW, it is not really in the making. If/when we get significant stakeholder support standing behind a social contract that will honor external reward blocks from bitshares, or NXT, or some other POS coin, or perhaps a new blockchain forked from the bitshares toolkit supported by one of the large bitcoin pools, then you could say an actual attack is being mounted.

Offline Ander

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/r/bitcoin reply

/r/Bitcoin/comments/2m3toy/bitcoin_attack_in_the_making/

Indeed.

And, literally the only result that can come out of this thread is that more bitcoin people hate us and will never buy bitshares.

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Offline eNORm

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/r/bitcoin reply

/r/Bitcoin/comments/2m3toy/bitcoin_attack_in_the_making/
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 09:47:14 pm by eNORm »

Offline Rune

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Wouldn't participation in this kill the price of BTC and thus the mining rewards themselves ?

Same core argument as to why a large stake holder won't attack POS. 

Am I missing something?

The miners will still be incentivized due to the high ERB rewards. If the bitcoin price falls to 50% but they can mine blocks that give more than twice the normal reward, they will still do it. I think most likely the huge amount of trade that bitcoin is used for now will be enough inertia to prevent the price from doing a serious crash. There will just be insane volatility but in the long run 1 bitcoin will still be 1 bitcoin, and the total possible amount of bitcoins will not have increased. Once we get to the point where volatility picks up because of the ERB's, we as bitshares stakeholders will already have made massive, irreversable gains because everyone will suddenly know what we are. In the long run everyone will obviously benefit because DPOS+bitcoin network effect is unstoppable.

Offline Rune

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If our stakeholders think that our 20% valuation is too high, then maybe we should put it at 10%. It would still be an approximate 1000% increase in value at current market rate and thus would be massively profitable for bitshares holders.

...I personally think BitShares is worth a lot more than a measly 10% of Bitcoin's cap. I'd much rather just see BitShares destroy the competition and suck up all of Bitcoin's value the old-fashioned way -- by being the best, and completely unstoppable.

Yeah well I also think 20% is the best amount, and that 10% is too low. Most people here, if they had to be honest, would probably almost always vote for an instant 2000% return, even if it meant allowing bitcoin to survive and not taking their entire market cap "the old fashioned way". When people vote for what to do, they will probably vote for it since they recognize there is nothing to lose by supporting it. The people who vote against it will do so primarily on moral grounds (or if it turns out to be unfeasible).

The existence of this attack also means that there still is a real possibility that we will ultimately be outcompeted by NXT. If they do the reverse acquisition, they will gain so much network effect that we won't have a chance to compete in the long run.

Another thing we have to consider that would be a big advantage to us is that that stakeholder centralization would be significantly reduced. All large BTS holders would be diluted to 20% (but gain 2000% profit), and all bitcoin holders would be diluted to 80% (but gain a secure consensus algorithm and long term profits). The possibility of attack by a large stakeholder would be a lot lower, as the new largest stakeholder would probably be satoshi, who would still only own about 4% of all.

Offline nomoreheroes7

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If our stakeholders think that our 20% valuation is too high, then maybe we should put it at 10%. It would still be an approximate 1000% increase in value at current market rate and thus would be massively profitable for bitshares holders.

...I personally think BitShares is worth a lot more than a measly 10% of Bitcoin's cap. I'd much rather just see BitShares destroy the competition and suck up all of Bitcoin's value the old-fashioned way -- by being the best, and completely unstoppable.

Offline Rune

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It's brilliant. And a bit reckless. I think we can achieve the same ends by being a little less hostile. Why not let BitShares grow a bit and the market progress naturally, to the point where there are open questions in the crypto community (not just from us) about whether BTS should succeed Bitcoin? And then prepare some sharedrop on-ramps to buy us some more Bitcoin defectors, accelerating the domino effect just when it can have the greatest impact. That way, it wouldn't need to be quite as hostile/radical and we'd be giving people the choice of jumping ship for some incentive. Plus, they might actually WANT to come here rather than being forced.

If this attack is possible, and we don't do it, then someone else will simply do it. The worst case scenario I can imagine is that it's simply one of the big bitcoin pools that decide "its time to upgrade bitcoin", then fork the bitshares toolkit and allocate 10% of all bitcoins to themselves on the new chain.

I think people are vastly overestimating the power of internet shitstorms when it comes to determining prices. The most lucrative companies in the world are also often those with the most disliked business practices. People invest primarily based on expected profits, with a (loud) minority being the religious fanatics we know and love from /r/bitcoin. If this attack is possible and any coin/blockchain announces they are going to perform it, they are going to be a serious hot commodity among traders who trade based on profit seeking (which is probably the majority of traders). In the long run we will not actually hurt bitcoin holders (total inflation will be lower), we will give them a massively improved system (bitshares), and we will finally give them control over their own coins, making it impossible for this kind of attack to ever happen again. Also this is a chance to actually make sure bitcoin survives through the ages and never goes away. For me at least this is very important. I think many bitcoiners who know in their heart that POW cannot be upgraded also will be quite quick to realize this, because before it was a very real possibility that bitcoin would simply die out once second generation blockchains begin to compete.

If it isn't us who does this, someone else will. They will likely give a more unfair distribution to bitcoin holders, and then they'll turn to us, fork our unique features, and destroy us. If our stakeholders think that our 20% valuation is too high, then maybe we should put it at 10%. It would still be an approximate 1000% increase in value at current market rate and thus would be massively profitable for bitshares holders.

The only way this can be presented and framed to the bitcoin community is with the obvious fact that we have to do it so someone else doesn't do it before us. We're migrating the bitcoins away from POW because it is vulnerable to this attack, and they will risk getting an even more unfair distribution, with even more going to miners, if they resist us. The initial shitstorm will be immense but once people realize that this attack vector exists they cannot deny that POW bitcoin is going to end, one way or another, and when that happens it might as well be bitshares that they migrate to.

Offline Stan

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Brilliant concept, but
We get essentially the same effect by simply positioning BitShares
as a nice, friendly crypto-savings account that pays interest. 
A complement to Bitcoin's crypto-checking account.
Bring in more new users than Bitcoin has through our funnels.
Educate them with this checking vs savings metaphor. 
Then let the ordinary consumer decide how much to keep in savings vs. checking. 
(I seldom keep more than 1% of my cash in checking.)
I expect 99% of Bitcoin's market cap to move to BitShares voluntarily.

;)
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Offline fluxer555

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It's brilliant. And a bit reckless. I think we can achieve the same ends by being a little less hostile. Why not let BitShares grow a bit and the market progress naturally, to the point where there are open questions in the crypto community (not just from us) about whether BTS should succeed Bitcoin? And then prepare some sharedrop on-ramps to buy us some more Bitcoin defectors, accelerating the domino effect just when it can have the greatest impact. That way, it wouldn't need to be quite as hostile/radical and we'd be giving people the choice of jumping ship for some incentive. Plus, they might actually WANT to come here rather than being forced.

I think this would be the optimal approach. We can frame the proposal as "Let's let the miners decide.", to force them to realize that that's ultimately what they always do anyway.

Question: Would this kind of attack be possible between two sets of delegates of two DPoS chains?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 06:41:41 pm by fluxer555 »

Offline fluxer555

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I think that the attempt at this would be the end of bitshares, not of bitcoin. 

The PoW algorithm is not so fragile that it can be taken down like that.  Yes, PoW is slightly flawed in that it wastes money.  But its not flawed in the sense that you cant just easily kill the coin - it does actually work to protect the network.

Any group that tried to do this to bitcoin would be hated by the entire crypto community with a passion you have never seen before.  It would be the end of that coin.  No one would ever touch it again with a 100 foot pole.

This is not a proposal to kill bitcoin. This is a migration that is outrageously incentivized for Bitcoin miners.

Offline donkeypong

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It's brilliant. And a bit reckless. I think we can achieve the same ends by being a little less hostile. Why not let BitShares grow a bit and the market progress naturally, to the point where there are open questions in the crypto community (not just from us) about whether BTS should succeed Bitcoin? And then prepare some sharedrop on-ramps to buy us some more Bitcoin defectors, accelerating the domino effect just when it can have the greatest impact. That way, it wouldn't need to be quite as hostile/radical and we'd be giving people the choice of jumping ship for some incentive. Plus, they might actually WANT to come here rather than being forced.