Author Topic: Should I even consider running a 100% pay delegate.  (Read 6353 times)

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Offline CLains

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Market price is information about what each share is worth. It is not just some random price floating in the air.

Market price depends on the volume you are trying to sell/buy. If you are using the best price, you have to understand that is the best possible estimate and is heavily biased, especially in liquid markets.

Lets take it here.

Offline monsterer

Market price is information about what each share is worth. It is not just some random price floating in the air.

Market price depends on the volume you are trying to sell/buy. If you are using the best price, you have to understand that is the best possible estimate and is heavily biased, especially in illliquid markets.

edit: spell checking overrode meaning
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 12:51:42 pm by monsterer »
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Offline CLains

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Market price is information about what each share is worth. It is not just some random price floating in the air. If you try to push it down artificially, more buying will come and resist. If i magically had 5% of the supply and announced that I would sell it at 50% discount from where price is now it would sell like hotcakes.

Offline monsterer

Was 100% Delegate pay 50 BTS per block? At 10 seconds block, that is 6 blocks per minute. 6*60 per hour, 6*60*24 per day, 6*60*24*30=259200 BTS per month. So pay is 50 BTS per block, times 259200 = 12 960 000 BTS. Then we divide this by 101? To get 128316 BTS a month per Delegate.

Delegate Income per month at 100% for different market caps:

$2279 at 35 million, (low-pay fulltime job)
$4558 at 70 million,
$6837 at 105 million, (high-pay fulltime job)
$22790 at 350 million,
$45580 at 700 million,  (3 high pay employees + $250k expenses a year)
$683700 at 10.5 billion..

Very possible I made some error here. Just trying to get an overview.

The error is with market depth. You can't just take the best price of BTS in USD and do a straight multiply - that gives you the very best possible case. Reality is that market depth means you could be looking at $200/month at 35 million - this is the very worse case.

Somewhere between $200 and $2279 per month at 35 million is the correct way to look at this.
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Offline CLains

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Interesting....
Was there any question or statement or something in this post of yours?

It was a reply to the Fuzz!

At current Marketcap, what is a 100% delegate paying?   Has anyone made a table that shows the percentages of pay at various marketcaps at varying pay rates (10%,25%,50%,100%...)?

I get the impression the calculation made people scared of share issuance. I am still in awe at how touchy people are on this topic. I saw it rather as motivation for potential Delegates - if history of I3 is any indication so far, the problem is not that they have too many bounties in the air, but that nobody knows about them!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 09:52:38 am by CLains »

Offline fuzzy

Just a couple points of clarification:

1) I wouldn't charge tonyk2 5% to give IT support. My post was partially in jest.

2) tony2k would solicit my advice on a hosting solution, compiling/running the client, and setting up some basic monitoring scripts.

It can be setup so my access can be terminated and someone else granted access (simple change to .ssh/authorized_keys) in the event tony2k either wants to fire for whatever reason (maybe he feels this is easy work and doesn't need to pay me or he's found someone to do it cheaper).

This isn't a lot different than what alt is offering with PAYALT. The biggest difference is that I'd be a contractor on retainer while he offers fixed units of work.

All pie in the sky right now. Just spit-balling ideas on how to make this all work.

I was simply bringing up a point ;)

I honestly think that right now we have VERY few people even seeming to care to vote...so for all the talk about unfair, if they aren't even voting yet we have bigger problems. And that is getting a proper representative delegate slate in charge. I do not think we are yet at the point where any of this corruption stuff is going to matter. 

As for gamey. It's not a matter of want.  It is a matter of time.  I am pretty sure if I devoted all my time to running delegates...I could do so.  I MIGHT even be able to swing it when bitshares reaches the billion dollar marketcap--if that is all I spent my time on.  It would become my career...and that would be great.  But let's face it, with respect to lowering barriers to entry, BTS Delegates are not it. 

As I see it, delegates are businesses.  In the real world, businesses advertise with people who are proven trustworthy or well-known.  IF I am considered these things, I see no reason I cannot compete to get my delegate slate voted in.  I also see no reason why others can't compete in a similar fashion. 

I mean...to me, that will give people who are not technical gurus like our boy Riverhead here the ability to spread their peacock feathers and work to gain the support of shareholders.  And the best way to gain that support is to advertise them in a way that directly benefits the BitShares Ecosystem (and as such, increases their marketcap...and grows their funding). 

As far as Pay.  It is partially that, but it is more to point out that everyone's situation is different and that there are MANY valuable traits that people in this ecosystem have that do not necessarily fit in one nice neat little box. 

I'm trying to get people to think outside the box as much as I am trying to get paid (though if bitshares became a net gain for my "vault" it would be nice.)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 11:46:27 am by fuzzy »
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Offline Riverhead

Just a couple points of clarification:

1) I wouldn't charge tonyk2 5% to give IT support. My post was partially in jest.

2) tony2k would solicit my advice on a hosting solution, compiling/running the client, and setting up some basic monitoring scripts.

It can be setup so my access can be terminated and someone else granted access (simple change to .ssh/authorized_keys) in the event tony2k either wants to fire for whatever reason (maybe he feels this is easy work and doesn't need to pay me or he's found someone to do it cheaper).

This isn't a lot different than what alt is offering with PAYALT. The biggest difference is that I'd be a contractor on retainer while he offers fixed units of work.

All pie in the sky right now. Just spit-balling ideas on how to make this all work.


Offline gamey

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I can run the tech stuff for 5%.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Though I personally am not against this (if you are only running, say, no more than 10% of the total number of delegates), I am finding that asking to have delegates pay you a % for a valuable service is looked upon as corrupting and therefore a no-go for members of the community.  However, I have not received many responses to my post so my data may be skewed.

People have repeatedly told you to run a delegate to be paid like the normal expected way.  You want to do a kickback type system.  You can't just put it all together in one group as being the same.

You do not want to run a delegate.  You say you don't want to run it when it is at scale.  That is ok, but Riverhead is using skills that readily have value in the real world.  He is doing stuff other people don't want to do. If I ran as a delegate and said I'd pay you $500 bitUSD to help continue the mumble server, that is not the same thing as having people give me kickbacks for me to push their candidacy .

I think you should be paid for mumble and community building efforts, people just disagree in the method of you being paid.
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Offline fuzzy

I can run the tech stuff for 5%.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Though I personally am not against this (if you are only running, say, no more than 10% of the total number of delegates), I am finding that asking to have delegates pay you a % for a valuable service is looked upon as corrupting and therefore a no-go for members of the community.  However, I have not received many responses to my post so my data may be skewed. 
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Offline Riverhead


I feel like I am in the wrong place at the wrong time. The time calls for paying big bucks for the senseless self-promoters and just the smallest  bone possible to the devs. (The bone is just big enough, on the margin, for those devs., to keep them from running away, imho).

Part of an IT delegate's role is increasing the security of the network. I'd be willing to give a portion of my pay to devs working on this aspect of the protocol and user experience for github submits that make it into a release.

Offline abit

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Was 100% Delegate pay 50 BTS per block? At 10 seconds block, that is 6 blocks per minute. 6*60 per hour, 6*60*24 per day, 6*60*24*30=259200 BTS per month. So pay is 50 BTS per block, times 259200 = 12 960 000 BTS. Then we divide this by 101? To get 128316 BTS a month per Delegate.

Delegate Income per month at 100% for different market caps:

$2279 at 35 million, (low-pay fulltime job)
$4558 at 70 million,
$6837 at 105 million, (high-pay fulltime job)
$22790 at 350 million,
$45580 at 700 million,  (3 high pay employees + $250k expenses a year)
$683700 at 10.5 billion..

Very possible I made some error here. Just trying to get an overview.

Free market decide the pay rate .
If BTS is one trillion market cap now , you think shareholders would let toast have 100% payrate ?  1 % is more than enough .
Wow, one trillion! I can't image that..
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zerosum

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Was 100% Delegate pay 50 BTS per block? At 10 seconds block, that is 6 blocks per minute. 6*60 per hour, 6*60*24 per day, 6*60*24*30=259200 BTS per month. So pay is 50 BTS per block, times 259200 = 12 960 000 BTS. Then we divide this by 101? To get 128316 BTS a month per Delegate.

Delegate Income per month at 100% for different market caps:

$2279 at 35 million, (low-pay fulltime job)
$4558 at 70 million,
$6837 at 105 million, (high-pay fulltime job)
$22790 at 350 million,
$45580 at 700 million,  (3 high pay employees + $250k expenses a year)
$683700 at 10.5 billion..

Very possible I made some error here. Just trying to get an overview.

Free market decide the pay rate .
If BTS is one trillion market cap now , you think shareholders would let toast have 100% payrate ?  1 % is more than enough .

I do not think toast will care about the 'market decided' pay rate at 1 trillion market cap.

The decision will be between margaritas on the beach all day long or avatars on the screen for the same period of time... and the decision will be primarily  determined by his age at the time of the decisions...not by the pay rate...
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 02:19:40 pm by tonyk2 »

Offline cn-members

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Was 100% Delegate pay 50 BTS per block? At 10 seconds block, that is 6 blocks per minute. 6*60 per hour, 6*60*24 per day, 6*60*24*30=259200 BTS per month. So pay is 50 BTS per block, times 259200 = 12 960 000 BTS. Then we divide this by 101? To get 128316 BTS a month per Delegate.

Delegate Income per month at 100% for different market caps:

$2279 at 35 million, (low-pay fulltime job)
$4558 at 70 million,
$6837 at 105 million, (high-pay fulltime job)
$22790 at 350 million,
$45580 at 700 million,  (3 high pay employees + $250k expenses a year)
$683700 at 10.5 billion..

Very possible I made some error here. Just trying to get an overview.

Free market decide the pay rate .
If BTS is one trillion market cap now , you think shareholders would let toast have 100% payrate ?  1 % is more than enough .
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zerosum

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Was 100% Delegate pay 50 BTS per block? At 10 seconds block, that is 6 blocks per minute. 6*60 per hour, 6*60*24 per day, 6*60*24*30=259200 BTS per month. So pay is 50 BTS per block, times 259200 = 12 960 000 BTS. Then we divide this by 101? To get 128316 BTS a month per Delegate.

Delegate Income per month at 100% for different market caps:

$2279 at 35 million, (low-pay fulltime job)
$4558 at 70 million,
$6837 at 105 million, (high-pay fulltime job)
$22790 at 350 million,
$45580 at 700 million,  (3 high pay employees + $250k expenses a year)
$683700 at 10.5 billion..

Very possible I made some error here. Just trying to get an overview.

Interesting....
Was there any question or statement or something in this post of yours?
Or should I just change the topic to Clains puts his math in writing... 'very possibly with errors' to use your own words ?
As I can no longer  move this thread to the Graveyard subsection, I can at least do THAT as a curtsey to you!

sumantso

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I would vote for you, that is if I am bold enough to actually run the wallet. It kept throwing up so many bugs and issues I haven't used it for over a month.

Streamlining employees, volunteers is a problem here especially with the need to run a delegate. I hope BM looks to separate them out. The employees in particular would be listed on one page in the wallet in an easy to see GUI format and I can just allocate percentages to them, and their payrate would be determined by the weighted average. It will also allow me to put small percentages on the volunteers here who are helpful as tips.

I think the whole process is too complicated - both for the voters as well as the paid delegates.