Author Topic: [Documents] Whitepapers & Broschures  (Read 26487 times)

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Offline Agent86

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Yes I know Agent.
I tied to correct the mistake the same day the post was made 11/24... but as BM was pretty unhappy with me arguing with you, I had to do it in unrelated thread...


I will give  all of you sparkly lovers and enthusiasts this much:
260% inflation in a Sparkling NEW POW coin is exiting, up to 6.5% in DPOS sent a mass sell waves to the exchanges...go figure.

PS
Speaking of percentages - 2 times increase in the price of a bitAsset is 50% drop in the price of BTS not 33%...
I even confirmed the rules with BM verbally because I wasn't sure; so I'm not taking full responsibility for this :P ... I know he thinks of the market reversed from most people (buy BTS with bitUSD) so maybe that has something to do with it.

So yeah Xeroc, your original wording is right:

"Short orders are forced to cover when 66% of their collateral is required to cover, leaving the short with 33% of the collateral minus a 5% fee."

(and margin call level is best described as 1.5x NOT 2X!)

zerosum

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Yes I know Agent.
I tied to correct the mistake the same day the post was made 11/24... but as BM was pretty unhappy with me arguing with you, I had to do it in unrelated thread...


I will give  all of you sparkly lovers and enthusiasts this much:
260% inflation in a Sparkling NEW POW coin is exiting, up to 6.5% in DPOS sent a mass sell waves to the exchanges...go figure.

PS
Speaking of percentages - 2 times increase in the price of a bitAsset is 50% drop in the price of BTS not 33%...

Offline Agent86

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I hope the rest of the world understands your 'easy' explanation... Cause I for sure do not...
You can help out?

Margin call ( or forced cover) is triggered when the price of the bitAsset doubles(increases 2 times). In other words, when 66% of the collateral is needed to repurchase  the bitAssets owed.


*Price of bitAsset in BTS/bitAsset

NB Those are by the rules I am aware of. If the rules have changed adjust accordingly!
Tony the rules were changed as I have mentioned so the margin call happens at 2x collateral now instead of 1.5x.

My explanation reflects exactly that state of the rules. It just avoids the incomprehensible, in my view, term 2x collateral.
Leave it as you like, but I personally understood it only because I know what you were talking about.
Yea tony, you are right...  I just opened the client and did the math, I should have done this in the first place!!

Bytemaster's explanation for the margin call level totally threw me off and I think it is wrong.

Bytemaster's explanation:
"Stated another way, if the value of BTS falls by 33% from the time the short position is entered, then a margin call will occur."

bytemaster's explanation should be:

"Stated another way, if the value of BTS falls by 33% 50% from the time the short position is entered, then a margin call will occur."

Now I'm sure I've just added to confusion...  :-[

Sorry Markus:
I agree that my original statement of 1.5x in the first version and the explanation bytemaster added were inconsistent, but I think bytemaster had it right because I think we changed the margin call level to 2x as in the updated version.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 11:24:20 pm by Agent86 »

zerosum

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I hope the rest of the world understands your 'easy' explanation... Cause I for sure do not...
You can help out?

Margin call ( or forced cover) is triggered when the price of the bitAsset doubles(increases 2 times). In other words, when 66% of the collateral is needed to repurchase  the bitAssets owed.


*Price of bitAsset in BTS/bitAsset

NB Those are by the rules I am aware of. If the rules have changed adjust accordingly!
Tony the rules were changed as I have mentioned so the margin call happens at 2x collateral now instead of 1.5x.

My explanation reflects exactly that state of the rules. It just avoids the incomprehensible, in my view, term 2x collateral.
Leave it as you like, but I personally understood it only because I know what you were talking about.

Offline Agent86

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Thanks, thats much more clear. :)


It appears that if you are shorting above the feed price, you can give a 0% interest rate and it will not hurt your chances of getting your short filled.  Is that right?
Yes

Offline Ander

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Thanks, thats much more clear. :)


It appears that if you are shorting above the feed price, you can give a 0% interest rate and it will not hurt your chances of getting your short filled.  Is that right?
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Offline Agent86

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I hope the rest of the world understands your 'easy' explanation... Cause I for sure do not...
You can help out?

Margin call ( or forced cover) is triggered when the price of the bitAsset doubles(increases 2 times). In other words, when 66% of the collateral is needed to repurchase  the bitAssets owed.


*Price of bitAsset in BTS/bitAsset

NB Those are by the rules I am aware of. If the rules have changed adjust accordingly!
Tony the rules were changed as I have mentioned so the margin call happens at 2x collateral now instead of 1.5x.

Offline Agent86

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When are margin calls triggered? The first version posted by BM says 33%, the second version by Agent says nothing about percentages and the wiki says 25% (http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/BitShares/Short#Market_Rules_for_Shorts).

The rules there state the following:
Let us discuss the rules that need to be fulfilled in order to successfully go short. Short orders can only get executed (i.e. filled) under these conditions:

    There is someone willing to buy BitUSD at the price feed
    AND Your short order offers the highest interest rate
    AND Your price limit is lower than the feed (BTS per USD) or you didn't specify a price limit.
    AND You have enough collateral to provide 2x backing at the feed price (amount of USD for short sale will vary with feed price)
    OR Your price limit is higher than the feed (BTS per USD) and someone is willing to buy at your price limit.


I find this confusing.  There are some AND conditions and then an OR condition, but it is not clear where the parentheses should be on evaluating those conditions.  Where does the OR condition apply?

Based on how it is written, one might read it and think that if the "OR Your price limit is higher than the feed (BTS per USD) and someone is willing to buy at your price limit" were true, then you wouldnt need any of the others to be true (you wouldnt need collateral, etc).  That is a clearly wrong interpretation.

Which statement does the OR actually match up with?



I believe the actual rules are like this:

In order to short you must fulfill one of these conditions:

* (Your price limit is higher than the feed) AND (someone is willing to buy at your price limit).

OR

* (There is someone willing to buy BitUSD at the price feed) AND (Your short order offers the highest interest rate) AND (Your price limit is lower than the feed OR you didn't specify a price limit).

Additionally, for either case, you must have enough collateral to provide 2x backing at the feed price (amount of USD for short sale will vary with feed price).
   

We need to clear this up.  I'm not even sure if my version is correct.
    {
    There is someone willing to buy BitUSD at the price feed
    AND Your short order offers the highest interest rate
    AND (Your price limit is lower than the feed (BTS per USD) or you didn't specify a price limit.)
    AND You have enough collateral to provide 2x backing at the feed price (amount of USD for short sale will vary with feed price)
    }
OR
    {
    Your price limit is higher than the feed (BTS per USD)
    AND someone is willing to buy at your price limit.
    AND You have enough collateral to provide 2x backing at your price limit
    AND Your short sell order is the lowest price bitUSD for sale
    }

Offline Ander

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When are margin calls triggered? The first version posted by BM says 33%, the second version by Agent says nothing about percentages and the wiki says 25% (http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/BitShares/Short#Market_Rules_for_Shorts).

The rules there state the following:
Let us discuss the rules that need to be fulfilled in order to successfully go short. Short orders can only get executed (i.e. filled) under these conditions:

    There is someone willing to buy BitUSD at the price feed
    AND Your short order offers the highest interest rate
    AND Your price limit is lower than the feed (BTS per USD) or you didn't specify a price limit.
    AND You have enough collateral to provide 2x backing at the feed price (amount of USD for short sale will vary with feed price)
    OR Your price limit is higher than the feed (BTS per USD) and someone is willing to buy at your price limit.


I find this confusing.  There are some AND conditions and then an OR condition, but it is not clear where the parentheses should be on evaluating those conditions.  Where does the OR condition apply?

Based on how it is written, one might read it and think that if the "OR Your price limit is higher than the feed (BTS per USD) and someone is willing to buy at your price limit" were true, then you wouldnt need any of the others to be true (you wouldnt need collateral, etc).  That is a clearly wrong interpretation.

Which statement does the OR actually match up with?



I believe the actual rules are like this:

In order to short you must fulfill one of these conditions:

* (Your price limit is higher than the feed) AND (someone is willing to buy at your price limit).

OR

* (There is someone willing to buy BitUSD at the price feed) AND (Your short order offers the highest interest rate) AND (Your price limit is lower than the feed OR you didn't specify a price limit).

Additionally, for either case, you must have enough collateral to provide 2x backing at the feed price (amount of USD for short sale will vary with feed price).
   

We need to clear this up.  I'm not even sure if my version is correct.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

zerosum

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I hope the rest of the world understands your 'easy' explanation... Cause I for sure do not...
You can help out?

Margin call ( or forced cover) is triggered when the price of the bitAsset doubles(increases 2 times). In other words, when 66% of the collateral is needed to repurchase  the bitAssets owed.


*Price of bitAsset in BTS/bitAsset

NB Those are by the rules I am aware of. If the rules have changed adjust accordingly!

Offline xeroc

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I hope the rest of the world understands your 'easy' explanation... Cause I for sure do not...
You can help out?

Offline xeroc

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updated the wiki .. thanks!

zerosum

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I hope the rest of the world understands your 'easy' explanation... Cause I for sure do not...

Offline Agent86

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How about

* Short orders are '''forced to cover when a margin call''' is triggered as the value of the collateral falls below 2x of what is needed to cover. A 5% fee is applied.
This seems fine to me.

Offline xeroc

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How about

* Short orders are '''forced to cover when a margin call''' is triggered as the value of the collateral falls below 2x of what is needed to cover. A 5% fee is applied.