Author Topic: [Proposal] Increase max delegate pay to 250 BTS per block  (Read 10025 times)

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Offline NewMine

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Or why not 1000. This way the dev's can make $5K+ per month instead of the current $1100/mo. This was the entire reason for increasing delegate pay in the first place. $1100 per month is not a living wage in any 1st world country.

There is no possible way this could make the market cap fall anymore right? I mean the current depressed price and unpairing from btc had nothing to do with devs selling their bts income. This way the devs get more money and everyone else can continue to wait. But at least the devs wont walk away.

I know this is one of your jab posts but,

$1100/month is a good combination of not depressing the market cap *too much*, and motivating the developers to work hard to increase the market cap so they can earn the money deserve.

Also is there any real risk of the core developers walking away now? They all just received 5million BTS each, which could be worth loads IFF the product is polished and actually gets used.

The risk of developers walking has nothing do with getting paid enough and everything to do with minimizing the chance that BM accidentally destroys any wealth we create again. I'm refusing to take any pay until we get a reasonable number of 0% delegates and use proposals to figure out how to direct inflation.
You should take your pay. You earned it.
Although,
It looks like you have withdrawn  366,941 BTS out of a total 367,895 BTS paid to your 100% delegate. Can you clarify what you mean?  http://bitsharesblocks.com/delegates/delegate?name=dev0.nikolai

Should have said "going forward" / "from now on". I withdrew all pay today to mark the end of the for-myself period and the start of the for-cass/valentine era. Perhaps I should take out the last week out of my pay also since I started working on Music stuff about a week ago, what do you think?

Keep it. It's your pay. That's what the people voted for. Right?  But if you want to give it to the plebs, that your purgative*(lol meant prerogative). Is DNS dead?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 01:58:59 am by NewMine »

Offline NewMine

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I'm refusing to take any pay until we get a reasonable number of 0% delegates and use proposals to figure out how to direct inflation.
My interpretation of what Toast is saying is in part that the "governance" of the DAC isn't working as efficiently as it could be and that can hurt value.  For instance, he's been pushing the importance of "proposals" or other stake weighted polling for a while (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=14043.0). I tend to agree and have argued that good stake polling is pretty crucial.

I think some people were turned off by the "merger" not so much because the idea of a merger was bad but simply because it appeared that Dan had the power to unilaterally change the rules and create more shares.  If the same decision was made after a fairly perceived stake weighted poll was conducted the whole thing may have been perceived differently.  Same goes for conflating delegates with workers; there is FUD in regards to how easily dilution happens.  I've tended to think having a high bar of 50% approval of active shares for dilution would be perceived better even if it took a lot of work to get there, especially because dilution was controversial and not in the original design.

Wasn't that the bread and butter of the "Killer VOTE DAC"? A built in blockchain voting mechanism? Perhaps what was sold to everyone as the "DAC killer" should've been developed first. That way everyone could have immediately seen what was being sold to us through a merger was in fact legit and worth it.  Now all we got is a "Crutch DAC" missing one of its legs (DNS) and it's spinal cord (VOTE supposedly).

Offline toast

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Or why not 1000. This way the dev's can make $5K+ per month instead of the current $1100/mo. This was the entire reason for increasing delegate pay in the first place. $1100 per month is not a living wage in any 1st world country.

There is no possible way this could make the market cap fall anymore right? I mean the current depressed price and unpairing from btc had nothing to do with devs selling their bts income. This way the devs get more money and everyone else can continue to wait. But at least the devs wont walk away.

I know this is one of your jab posts but,

$1100/month is a good combination of not depressing the market cap *too much*, and motivating the developers to work hard to increase the market cap so they can earn the money deserve.

Also is there any real risk of the core developers walking away now? They all just received 5million BTS each, which could be worth loads IFF the product is polished and actually gets used.

The risk of developers walking has nothing do with getting paid enough and everything to do with minimizing the chance that BM accidentally destroys any wealth we create again. I'm refusing to take any pay until we get a reasonable number of 0% delegates and use proposals to figure out how to direct inflation.
You should take your pay. You earned it.
Although,
It looks like you have withdrawn  366,941 BTS out of a total 367,895 BTS paid to your 100% delegate. Can you clarify what you mean?  http://bitsharesblocks.com/delegates/delegate?name=dev0.nikolai

Should have said "going forward" / "from now on". I withdrew all pay today to mark the end of the for-myself period and the start of the for-cass/valentine era. Perhaps I should take out the last week out of my pay also since I started working on Music stuff about a week ago, what do you think?
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline NewMine

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Or why not 1000. This way the dev's can make $5K+ per month instead of the current $1100/mo. This was the entire reason for increasing delegate pay in the first place. $1100 per month is not a living wage in any 1st world country.

There is no possible way this could make the market cap fall anymore right? I mean the current depressed price and unpairing from btc had nothing to do with devs selling their bts income. This way the devs get more money and everyone else can continue to wait. But at least the devs wont walk away.

I know this is one of your jab posts but,

$1100/month is a good combination of not depressing the market cap *too much*, and motivating the developers to work hard to increase the market cap so they can earn the money deserve.

Also is there any real risk of the core developers walking away now? They all just received 5million BTS each, which could be worth loads IFF the product is polished and actually gets used.

The risk of developers walking has nothing do with getting paid enough and everything to do with minimizing the chance that BM accidentally destroys any wealth we create again. I'm refusing to take any pay until we get a reasonable number of 0% delegates and use proposals to figure out how to direct inflation.
You should take your pay. You earned it.
Although,
It looks like you have withdrawn  366,941 BTS out of a total 367,895 BTS paid to your 100% delegate. Can you clarify what you mean?  http://bitsharesblocks.com/delegates/delegate?name=dev0.nikolai

Offline Stan

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It's been a long time comin'
It's goin' to be a long time gone
And it appears to be a long night
Before the dawn

Crosby, Stills and Nash - Long Time Gone
wtf Stan?
You have a knack for nonsense.

When you see the Southern Cross for the first time
You understand now why you came this way
'Cause the truth you might be runnin' from is so small
But it's as big as the promise, the promise of a comin' day

Crosby, Stills and Nash - Souther Cross

One of my favorite songs! 

"We got eighty feet of the waterline nicely making way..."

I'm focused on that promise of a comin' day!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 11:23:22 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Agent86

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I'm refusing to take any pay until we get a reasonable number of 0% delegates and use proposals to figure out how to direct inflation.
My interpretation of what Toast is saying is in part that the "governance" of the DAC isn't working as efficiently as it could be and that can hurt value.  For instance, he's been pushing the importance of "proposals" or other stake weighted polling for a while (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=14043.0). I tend to agree and have argued that good stake polling is pretty crucial.

I think some people were turned off by the "merger" not so much because the idea of a merger was bad but simply because it appeared that Dan had the power to unilaterally change the rules and create more shares.  If the same decision was made after a fairly perceived stake weighted poll was conducted the whole thing may have been perceived differently.  Same goes for conflating delegates with workers; there is FUD in regards to how easily dilution happens.  I've tended to think having a high bar of 50% approval of active shares for dilution would be perceived better even if it took a lot of work to get there, especially because dilution was controversial and not in the original design.

Offline NewMine

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It's been a long time comin'
It's goin' to be a long time gone
And it appears to be a long night
Before the dawn

Crosby, Stills and Nash - Long Time Gone
wtf Stan?
You have a knack for nonsense.

When you see the Southern Cross for the first time
You understand now why you came this way
'Cause the truth you might be runnin' from is so small
But it's as big as the promise, the promise of a comin' day

Crosby, Stills and Nash - Souther Cross

Offline NewMine

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Or why not 1000. This way the dev's can make $5K+ per month instead of the current $1100/mo. This was the entire reason for increasing delegate pay in the first place. $1100 per month is not a living wage in any 1st world country.

There is no possible way this could make the market cap fall anymore right? I mean the current depressed price and unpairing from btc had nothing to do with devs selling their bts income. This way the devs get more money and everyone else can continue to wait. But at least the devs wont walk away.

I know this is one of your jab posts but,

$1100/month is a good combination of not depressing the market cap *too much*, and motivating the developers to work hard to increase the market cap so they can earn the money deserve.

Also is there any real risk of the core developers walking away now? They all just received 5million BTS each, which could be worth loads IFF the product is polished and actually gets used.
They all had decent holdings before the last Dev airdrop.

I'm just saying that everyone was crying about how $2400 per month, the max delegate pay immediately following the merger based on BTS price, was not enough for the Dev's who could/should be making  $8K per month.  If I were a Dev thinking I was going to be raking in or should be raking in $8K+ per month and I was now relegated to a measly $1100 gross per month, I'd be looking for another job. I suspect that some are if they are not already employed elsewhwere fultime and relegated BTS to a side project. Wouldn't blame them one bit and think they all should. The pipe dream of BTS is a long way off.

Offline Stan

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It's been a long time comin'
It's goin' to be a long time gone
And it appears to be a long night
Before the dawn

Crosby, Stills and Nash - Long Time Gone
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline toast

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I haven't taken any pay for music yet and don't plan to until I "cleared my debts" with BTS by refusing more pay and taking what I can of the "bonus" runway to fund stuff that the current model can't fund. I would go into more details but the chinese PR group told me to shut up. They're the ones that shut off that discussion BTW, and I think it's actually a good idea.

And again, none of my decisions are because I'm not getting paid enough. I have constantly refreshing standing offers for significantly more than what I'm getting here. I'll let you know if and when I take one of them, until then I'm a bagholder/believer just like you.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline mint chocolate chip

Or why not 1000. This way the dev's can make $5K+ per month instead of the current $1100/mo. This was the entire reason for increasing delegate pay in the first place. $1100 per month is not a living wage in any 1st world country.

There is no possible way this could make the market cap fall anymore right? I mean the current depressed price and unpairing from btc had nothing to do with devs selling their bts income. This way the devs get more money and everyone else can continue to wait. But at least the devs wont walk away.

I know this is one of your jab posts but,

$1100/month is a good combination of not depressing the market cap *too much*, and motivating the developers to work hard to increase the market cap so they can earn the money deserve.

Also is there any real risk of the core developers walking away now? They all just received 5million BTS each, which could be worth loads IFF the product is polished and actually gets used.

The risk of developers walking has nothing do with getting paid enough and everything to do with minimizing the chance that BM accidentally destroys any wealth we create again. I'm refusing to take any pay until we get a reasonable number of 0% delegates and use proposals to figure out how to direct inflation.

It sounds nice that you are standing up for your beliefs by "refusing to take any pay", but the reasoning you use to justify it just does not match your earlier (now redacted) statement that you are effectively not working for BitShares at the moment but instead working for Music, essentially double dipping for an undisclosed amount of time and deciding to now take corrective action.

I can't fault you for looking out for #1, but blaming BM and the inflation system that was paying you is a poor way to justify choosing to work elsewhere despite the large PTS and BTS bonuses that were aimed at keeping you on board for a lengthier period of time.

Offline fuzzy

Toast:
You are an extraordinarily talented person. Hard working and honest.

Unfortunately you have all the arrogance of youth.

Your posts are almost always thoughtful, generous and helpful. But  on rare occasion they demonstrate hubris and have been as detrimental as anything Bytemaster has ever done. Please work out your frustrations with him and/or other team members in private. Or bring them up in a Mumble session that you all attend. Posting this here you are needlessly contributing to Newmine's agenda and negatively affecting our investments in this project.

I don't want to discourage Toast, since he's a good and talented guy, but I agree with this statement. From the positive perspective, Toast has a great potential to be a greater person.

I prefer to look at it from a slightly different perspective.   Toast has a difference of opinion and has a different way of going about expressing it than the community might prefer.   This is neither right or wrong.  In fact it seems he is naturally beginning to search for the proper outlet.   This is fine!

We are all walking this road and evolving based on our own experiences. .. and this path will not be easy and for some of us in different jurisdictions. .. might be outright dangerous.

We must walk our path in line with the level of risk we can endure  and must hope to have others who will (hopefully) be there to help uplift us in both our greatest trials and triumphs.

As for hubris. ..all of us have a level of hubris or we wouldn't be so crazy as to think we can endure this daunting task of changing the current paradigm. :) 

Let us never forget to celebrate each others' craziness in this respect!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 09:21:55 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline clayop

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Toast:
You are an extraordinarily talented person. Hard working and honest.

Unfortunately you have all the arrogance of youth.

Your posts are almost always thoughtful, generous and helpful. But  on rare occasion they demonstrate hubris and have been as detrimental as anything Bytemaster has ever done. Please work out your frustrations with him and/or other team members in private. Or bring them up in a Mumble session that you all attend. Posting this here you are needlessly contributing to Newmine's agenda and negatively affecting our investments in this project.

I don't want to discourage Toast, since he's a good and talented guy, but I agree with this statement. From the positive perspective, Toast has a great potential to be a greater person.
Bitshares Korea - http://www.bitshares.kr
Vote for me and see Korean Bitshares community grows
delegate-clayop

Offline onceuponatime

Or why not 1000. This way the dev's can make $5K+ per month instead of the current $1100/mo. This was the entire reason for increasing delegate pay in the first place. $1100 per month is not a living wage in any 1st world country.

There is no possible way this could make the market cap fall anymore right? I mean the current depressed price and unpairing from btc had nothing to do with devs selling their bts income. This way the devs get more money and everyone else can continue to wait. But at least the devs wont walk away.

I know this is one of your jab posts but,

$1100/month is a good combination of not depressing the market cap *too much*, and motivating the developers to work hard to increase the market cap so they can earn the money deserve.

Also is there any real risk of the core developers walking away now? They all just received 5million BTS each, which could be worth loads IFF the product is polished and actually gets used.

The risk of developers walking has nothing do with getting paid enough and everything to do with minimizing the chance that BM accidentally destroys any wealth we create again. I'm refusing to take any pay until we get a reasonable number of 0% delegates and use proposals to figure out how to direct inflation.

Toast:
You are an extraordinarily talented person. Hard working and honest.

Unfortunately you have all the arrogance of youth.

Your posts are almost always thoughtful, generous and helpful. But  on rare occasion they demonstrate hubris and have been as detrimental as anything Bytemaster has ever done. Please work out your frustrations with him and/or other team members in private. Or bring them up in a Mumble session that you all attend. Posting this here you are needlessly contributing to Newmine's agenda and negatively affecting our investments in this project.

Hubrishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris

Offline fuzzy

Or why not 1000. This way the dev's can make $5K+ per month instead of the current $1100/mo. This was the entire reason for increasing delegate pay in the first place. $1100 per month is not a living wage in any 1st world country.

There is no possible way this could make the market cap fall anymore right? I mean the current depressed price and unpairing from btc had nothing to do with devs selling their bts income. This way the devs get more money and everyone else can continue to wait. But at least the devs wont walk away.

I know this is one of your jab posts but,

$1100/month is a good combination of not depressing the market cap *too much*, and motivating the developers to work hard to increase the market cap so they can earn the money deserve.

Also is there any real risk of the core developers walking away now? They all just received 5million BTS each, which could be worth loads IFF the product is polished and actually gets used.

The risk of developers walking has nothing do with getting paid enough and everything to do with minimizing the chance that BM accidentally destroys any wealth we create again. I'm refusing to take any pay until we get a reasonable number of 0% delegates and use proposals to figure out how to direct inflation.

BM is only one cog in the wheel at this point.   This has less to do with delegates in my opinion and more with the fact that the other developers are not as active in reaching out to investors (or maybe they are more interested in another demographic of investors).

Communication here is important and if devs do not want BM to be perceived as the one and only face of this project,  they should consider doing what he has done and be more visible.   

Of course this is a place where I could push hangouts. ..but there are an ever-growing number opportunities outside hangouts and I suspect moving forward we will have many more.

I actually foresee our developers all splitting off at some point to runtheir own projects and see it as a healthy thing in our ecosystem.  In fact,  this is one of the reasons I have positioned beyond bitcoin to cover tokens that sharedrop on holders of bitshares/pts/ags founders...because it helps protect investors from the chaos of the huge changes that will need to be endured when developers do split off from projects to work on others (which is BENEFICIAL for technology!).

Many with maximalist tendencies will not appreciate this yet...but I am certain they will in the future.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 08:30:45 pm by fuzzy »
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D