Author Topic: BitAsset 2.0 Requirements & Implied Design  (Read 49503 times)

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Offline starspirit

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To make a wise choice on the yield vs no-yield option for BTA 2.0, it is important to consider what will give bitShares the best ongoing advantage in the pegged currency space.

The key is to remember that we are always in competition with others. It's not a good enough argument to say yield can be provided in the bond market, so no yield is required in BTA 2.0, if it turns out that a competitor can create a yield-earning equivalent and also have a bond market, a combination that may be superior to our own.

Imagine if a bank, in the face of competition against other banks that were offering interest on their at-call accounts, took the stance that they did not need to offer interest because customers could get interest in their term deposits instead. How do you think that bank might fare?

It is valid to compare the yield and no-yield options, and decide on one as being a better product than the other. Because then we are saying that if a competitor develops the yield option, then we are comfortable we still have a better product. We have to imagine that anything we could build could be built by others, and we need to believe we have the best product available.

Offline xiahui135

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I am against the force settlement design.
Our purpose should be to establish a  platform, on which two sides of player can match each other.
We just need simple rules.Remove the settlement design seem can do that.

Offline Shentist

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From an email contact with www.mapofcoins.com/technologies : What shall be replied to the following request?

"Could you name me the core features of BitShares technology that you want me to highlight. And could you tell me why this technology has to be in this list."

First decentralized exchange with market pegged assets

Offline brainbug

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From an email contact with www.mapofcoins.com/technologies : What shall be replied to the following request?

"Could you name me the core features of BitShares technology that you want me to highlight. And could you tell me why this technology has to be in this list."

jakub

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I would summarize it like this: does cash pay interest?  do checking accounts ever pay meaningful interest? There are many people here claiming that the "longs should pay the shorts" well, that is happening naturally by the longs *not charging interest* to the shorts. This will increase supply of BitUSD and reduce the premium above the feed.Any interest payments will only add to the risk profile the shorts face and create larger premiums above the feed. No one ever pays meaningful interest for "on demand instant liquidity investments". 

To get high interest bonds usually requires locking up your funds for a period of time in some kind of bond. It normally entails some kind of risk. 

If the blockchain mirrors the real world then BitUSD can ben lent at interest for fixed terms in the bond market to shorts who want the guarantee of not being called or who want extra leverage. There will be a huge market to borrow BitUSD against other, more-stable, collateral.  IE: Borrow BitUSD using BitGold as collateral. Here is a market that has minimal BTS exposure and will likely have large demand.   

So those who need liquidity can stay in BitUSD, those who want yield can offer their BitUSD to the bond market. The existence of the Bond market creates arbitrage opportunities where you can buy BitUSD and then lend it at X% interest.  This is just like banking / cash where you have the option to get yield, but not everyone takes it.   

This reminds me of Agent86 saying something very similar back in August 2014.

BitUSD is not supposed to have an associated interest rate.  It's just supposed to track the dollar.  People will buy a bitUSD that reliably tracks the dollar for the purpose of facilitating trade, not for getting interest.
...
Interest bearing bonds require a separate market and implementation from the core BitUSD market.  A BTSX holder can sell a collateralized promise to pay a certain amount of bitUSD at a certain date in the future.  There can then be a "bond market" for these promissory notes.  The present day value of these future promises to pay BitUSD will determine short term and long term interest rates.

I could not understand it then but now I do.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 11:44:12 am by jakub »

jakub

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The higher the BitUSD to USD price the greater the potential losses.   IF the price is $1.01 per BitUSD then you can buy it with a risk of 1% loss.   If you buy it at $1.10 it is a 10% risk of loss.   
For me that's the most convincing argument so far.
The further bitUSD moves from parity the more risky it becomes in the eyes of bitUSD longs (as it is more detached from its safety net of $1.0) and this should push its price down.

Offline starspirit

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I would summarize it like this:  does cash pay interest?   do checking accounts ever pay meaningful interest? 
...[deleted]...
To get high interest bonds usually requires locking up your funds for a period of time in some kind of bond.   It normally entails some kind of risk. 
BM, you may be right that a yield is not required - I'm just trying to think through the bigger context.

US and European citizens might be deceived by today's low rates. Where inflation is high deposit accounts normally do require interest, as banks compete to offer competitive rates. If inflation expectations rose considerably in the pegged currencies, and there were no compensation, external at-call deposits would offer interest, and put bitUSD at quite a disadvantage, severely contracting its demand. I could be satisfied if BitAsset 2.0 were like cash, and an interest-bearing at-call deposit account made available in addition.

On the other hand, while global interest rates are so low, and crypto in a bear market, we need to also be able to deal with the possibility of an occasionally negative yield (income to shorts) to balance supply and demand. A cash option gives longs a way to avoid negative yield, and would basically lead to shorts wanting to close the market to escape their shorts. I don't like the idea of negative rates, but we do need to reflect the competitive environment externally.

In this case, it may not be sufficient to rely on shorts being incentivised by selling at a premium, if there is no way they can be sure of unwinding at a lower premium to reap the benefit.

I'm still open to the arguments either way, as long as all the ramifications are clear.

I know many solutions have been proposed including the use of interest rates.  Also, interest rates that float between positive and negative have been proposed and this could potentially be the solution.  However, I am a bit skeptical because many legacy markets, especially futures markets which bitshares seems to be more like, don't use interest rates for most assets. 
These external markets do reflect interest rates as follows. In CFD markets, users' accounts are credited or debited according to the funding rates available to the CFD provider and dividends on the underlying assets of their positions (less a spread). In futures and options markets, where there is a fixed expiry for settlement of both longs and shorts, the difference between the futures price and the spot (or "cash") price reflects the market's funding rates and dividend expectations till expiry. (I think a bitUSD is more like a CFD than a future.)

...The market should be as free as possible with the only requirement being that orders have to be executed within X% of the price feed.  Orders can be placed outside of that X%, but they won't be activated until the price feed comes within that X%.  If buyers want to buy, they buy.  If sellers want to sell, they sell.  If short sellers want to short, they short.  If not, then no trades take place.  To 'nearly' guarantee liquidity for asset holders, a floating market order at the feed price can be used.  In this scenario, I believe the risk of systemic failure would be greater than the risk of no liquidity.  Eventually liquidity will enter the system as users become more comfortable and believe it will work, but this will take time.
There is nothing to stop somebody else setting up a free bitUSD:BTS market without these constraints. When the free market price is outside the constraints of the constrained market, all the liquidity will migrate to the unconstrained market and trade at the free market price. Any other bitUSD markets would follow suit.

The bitAsset 2.0 system would work much better if we remove the proposed unlimited forced-settlement and just settle any positions below 100% collateral.  It's simple, more predictable, balanced and free-flowing.
If demand contracted relative to supply (a market overhang), and the market cannot force settlement, then price must fall below the peg. What is the limit to how far below the peg the market might go? We could argue that other longs may be incentivised to buy at a discount, but the problem is that they don't know whether they will be able to sell at a lower discount, or if the discount just stays indefinitely or expands further. This is analogous to the situation experienced on the short side today. You have said you don't mind deviation around the peg, but we don't know how far this could go.

However, as forced settlement can be subject to BTS market manipulation without appropriate rules in place, I think it is worthwhile toying with alternatives as well.  For example, we could let the bitUSD:USD market trade freely, and when the price of bitUSD:USD falls below parity, force closure of a block of shorts (with enough notice of timing put to the market to alert shorts, arbitragers, bargain hunter etc). The block of shorts selected and closed would then be forced to buy bitUSD on market. The block size could be determined with reference to the level of discount, volume, or depth in the bitUSD:USD market, and it may take several such blocks to get back to parity, but its guaranteed to happen eventually through the forced supply reduction. The selection criteria for short closures could be based on yield or collateral. This concept may have holes in it too, just an early half-formed thought.

Offline merivercap

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Just to put in my two cents worth - focusing on getting more traders would be as good a solution as making changes to the way the system works.

Current traders, which is a fairly small group I would think, have become risk averse due to getting burned on a falling price and are therefore acting irrationality. Getting more traders and therefore a greater diversity of past history and perspectives may be a better solution than trying to tailor the system to cater for the current type of irrationality, because if there is one thing we can be confident of its that people will find a new way to act irrationally in the future.

I would agree that it may help to get more perspectives from traders. 

Not sure I would call them irrational.  Nothing is guaranteed.  Value is subjective.  Sure market psychology influences prices significantly, but someone's view of the fundamentals of Bitshares can change too.  It can also be the current design that discourages shorts.  If you think it's irrational behavior maybe you should just invest more heavily and HODL .. perhaps mortgage your house on  BTS.  :P   It's good to be aware of the rules of the game because what you may think is irrational behavior now may very well become rational the more you look into it. 
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Offline merivercap

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BTW 'stable' cryptocurrency is important for immediate mainstream adoption.

I suppose this is where we disagree.  A fully functional market engine is most important for mainstream adoption.  A stable cryptocurrency is a byproduct.  As liquidity enters the system of a fully functional market, liquidity for bitAsset longs will become a non-issue.


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We need bitUSD shorters that will short to infinity. 

Yes but you cannot force short sellers to short.

1)  When I mean 'stable' I just meant generally pegged, but I'm using the word loosely so we may not really differ in opinion.  I don't really care that bitUSD fluctuates between $0.90 and $1.10 and I don't think bitUSD holders will care either, although adding the floor in the current design so prices fluctuate between $1.00 and $1.20 seems fine.

I think most mainstream bitUSD holders will end up exchanging with FRN's back and forth without even considering what they can get on a crypto exchange.  If it's valued around $1 in most places no one's going to sweat the difference and that's going to drive the peg.

2) Did not hear anyone saying anything about forcing people to short and I wouldn't agree with anyone that did.  If we just remove the forced-settlement feature it will do a lot to keep the market in balance.  People will naturally short if there is more balance.  I personally wouldn't short in the current design, but who knows what others will do. 
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Offline bytemaster

This is the biggest (imo) possible flow in bitAssets 2.0
Shorts are not getting any real premium if they sell at a premium to open the position but will have to buy at a premium to close the position!

So it all comes down whether BM's assumptions turn out to be holding:
  1.  The further BitUSD gets from $1 the more incentive there is for for BitUSD holders to take profits and sell. 
  2.  The further BitUSD gets from $1 the less demand there is to buy BitUSD
  3.  The further BitUSD gets from $1 the more demand there is to short BitUSD
It looks like we will never know unless we try it in action.

1. The  flow in the bolded point 2 comes from the fact that it assumes the demand comes from the price itself. What I mean is:
If the demand increase due to say a country (or group of people if you prefer) A discovering bitUSD is great. It is true that if bitUSD is available for sell at 1.05 more of it will be bought than if the price is 1.15, but in total more bitUSD will be bought at either price as opposed to case where country A ended up not discovering the produc bitUSD.

2. As described in my previous post the assertion in 3. is true only if you can sell (short in this case) at premium and later buy without such premium. And as maqifrnswa described it - the premium can very well move in a random Brownian motion for a very wide range of premiums if no mechanism exist to push the price back closer to the feed.

What about this mechanism - it's not very nice but it might do the job required:
The higher the price of bitUSD (in terns of real $) the more insecure the bitUSD longs will feel about the future of the BitShares system backing up their bitUSD and they will start thinking like this: "I've earned enough, I'd better not push my luck any further and and I'd better get rid of my bitUSD while the whole system still works".
If you bought your bitUSD at $1.1 and now the price was bitUSD = $2.0, will you push your luck much further? I would not as I'd be worried that I might end up having nothing instead of $2 which I can have now.

So maybe that's the mechanism we are looking for: the price of bitUSD will be pushed down because the existence of bitUSD depends on the well-being of the underlying BitShares and if the price goes too high more and more people will feel insecure about holding bitUSD.

The higher the BitUSD to USD price the greater the potential losses.   IF the price is $1.01 per BitUSD then you can buy it with a risk of 1% loss.   If you buy it at $1.10 it is a 10% risk of loss.   

For the sake of argument... assume the feed producers adjusted the "force settlement price" to constantly move the volume weighted average trade price of BitUSD to $1.00?     In this case the feed producers are pro-actively managing the peg and adjusting for changes in supply/demand of shorts vs longs.     This means that at some points in time "force settlement" may be 10% below parity... but trading is still occurring around $1.00.

If you can understand how manipulating the force-settlement price to maintain the peg is similar to manipulating an artificial interest rate then you can see how not manipulating the forced settlement price would behave like keeping interest rates fixed.     When interest rates are fixed, prices move to compensate.   Likewise, if the force-settlement fee is fixed at 0% then prices will move... if you dynamically adjust the fee then the price will stay flat. 

Once you understand that you will see that fixing the fee at 0% means prices will float ABOVE $1.00 per BitUSD and be entirely set by the market.    Dynamically adjusting the fee would be market intervention and keep trading at $1.00 so long as everyone trusts the fee manipulation to be carried out in a trustable manner.   












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jakub

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This is the biggest (imo) possible flow in bitAssets 2.0
Shorts are not getting any real premium if they sell at a premium to open the position but will have to buy at a premium to close the position!

So it all comes down whether BM's assumptions turn out to be holding:
  1.  The further BitUSD gets from $1 the more incentive there is for for BitUSD holders to take profits and sell. 
  2.  The further BitUSD gets from $1 the less demand there is to buy BitUSD
  3.  The further BitUSD gets from $1 the more demand there is to short BitUSD
It looks like we will never know unless we try it in action.

1. The  flow in the bolded point 2 comes from the fact that it assumes the demand comes from the price itself. What I mean is:
If the demand increase due to say a country (or group of people if you prefer) A discovering bitUSD is great. It is true that if bitUSD is available for sell at 1.05 more of it will be bought than if the price is 1.15, but in total more bitUSD will be bought at either price as opposed to case where country A ended up not discovering the produc bitUSD.

2. As described in my previous post the assertion in 3. is true only if you can sell (short in this case) at premium and later buy without such premium. And as maqifrnswa described it - the premium can very well move in a random Brownian motion for a very wide range of premiums if no mechanism exist to push the price back closer to the feed.

What about this mechanism - it's not very nice but it might do the job required:
The higher the price of bitUSD (in terns of real $) the more insecure the bitUSD longs will feel about the future of the BitShares system backing up their bitUSD and they will start thinking like this: "I've earned enough, I'd better not push my luck any further and and I'd better get rid of my bitUSD while the whole system still works".
If you bought your bitUSD at $1.1 and now the price was bitUSD = $2.0, will you push your luck much further? I would not as I'd be worried that I might end up having nothing instead of $2 which I can have now.

So maybe that's the mechanism we are looking for: the price of bitUSD will be pushed down because the existence of bitUSD depends on the well-being of the underlying BitShares and if the price goes too high more and more people will feel insecure about holding bitUSD.

Offline Helikopterben

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BTW 'stable' cryptocurrency is important for immediate mainstream adoption.

I suppose this is where we disagree.  A fully functional market engine is most important for mainstream adoption.  A stable cryptocurrency is a byproduct.  As liquidity enters the system of a fully functional market, liquidity for bitAsset longs will become a non-issue.


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We need bitUSD shorters that will short to infinity. 

Yes but you cannot force short sellers to short.

Offline Helikopterben

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- longs are willing to pay a bit more but demand liquidity in return

Yes but longs are not going to pay 20% more because worst case - they may have to settle at a 20% loss when they redeem their dollars.

Offline merivercap

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This is the problem that needs to be solved one way or the other.  Lots of demand and very little supply:


Informative graphic.  It's mainly bear market psychology, but the BitAsset design should be resilient and robust in any market conditions. 

BTW 'stable' cryptocurrency is important for immediate mainstream adoption.  We can easily transition to bitGold, bitBTC if fiat fails.

Guaranteeing liquidity at the expense of the shorts will not fix the problem....Liquidity will come from traders and market makers, who will not require instant redemption of USD.

Agree.

The market should be as free as possible with the only requirement being that orders have to be executed within X% of the price feed.  Orders can be placed outside of that X%, but they won't be activated until the price feed comes within that X%.  If buyers want to buy, they buy.  If sellers want to sell, they sell.  If short sellers want to short, they short.  If not, then no trades take place.  To 'nearly' guarantee liquidity for asset holders, a floating market order at the feed price can be used.  In this scenario, I believe the risk of systemic failure would be greater than the risk of no liquidity.  Eventually liquidity will enter the system as users become more comfortable and believe it will work, but this will take time.

I agree.

Also we need long term shorts to maintain bitUSD/bitAsset supply.  If not bitUSD users will have unpredictable supply to run their businesses.  Imagine if a company bought $1 million in bitUSD to run a business and start a bitUSD ecosystem last November. Today the company would only have about $150k worth of supply.  That's terrible for business.   We need bitUSD shorters that will short to infinity. 

Imagine for a moment that people can short as much as the collateral they have.  No leverage.  So if everyone shorted bitUSD today, $10 million of bitUSD  will be created and $10 million worth of BTS will back the collateral.  There is no leverage and there is 100% backing.  If BTS falls in price and market cap goes to $9 million, $1 million worth of shorts will disappear and $9 million worth of bitUSD will remain.  Wealth is just transferred from one party to another.  If less than 75% of bitUSD holders are long term users, there would be much less unpredictability with bitUSD supply.  Otherwise we will go from having $1 million bitUSD supply to $10 million like a yo-yo based on market conditions.

The bitAsset 2.0 system would work much better if we remove the proposed unlimited forced-settlement and just settle any positions below 100% collateral.  It's simple, more predictable, balanced and free-flowing.
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zerosum

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This is the biggest (imo) possible flow in bitAssets 2.0
Shorts are not getting any real premium if they sell at a premium to open the position but will have to buy at a premium to close the position!

So it all comes down whether BM's assumptions turn out to be holding:
  1.  The further BitUSD gets from $1 the more incentive there is for for BitUSD holders to take profits and sell. 
  2.  The further BitUSD gets from $1 the less demand there is to buy BitUSD
  3.  The further BitUSD gets from $1 the more demand there is to short BitUSD
It looks like we will never know unless we try it in action.

1. The  flow in the bolded point 2 comes from the fact that it assumes the demand comes from the price itself. What I mean is:
If the demand increase due to say a country (or group of people if you prefer) A discovering bitUSD is great. It is true that if bitUSD is available for sell at 1.05 more of it will be bought than if the price is 1.15, but in total more bitUSD will be bought at either price as opposed to case where country A ended up not discovering the produc bitUSD.

2. As described in my previous post the assertion in 3. is true only if you can sell (short in this case) at premium and later buy without such premium. And as maqifrnswa described it - the premium can very well move in a random Brownian motion for a very wide range of premiums if no mechanism exist to push the price back closer to the feed.