Please stop changing the rules of the game

[Stan]

Wait, Dan and Stan are 2 out of the 4 for Identabit? And then Stan says with a straight face that the Brownie sharedrop awarded by Identabit was John Underwood's own personal decision and they didn't even influence it?

I joined Bitshares back in 2013 enthused by BM's philosophy, and even when the price was going down I held through as I believed the project needed support. Now I am starting to think (have been for sometime) that we were fooled.

If you scroll down the main website,  you get to 'The Originators'  who are receiving 10% of initial equity. http://identabit.com/

It may well have been John's decision though. I'm certainly not one to speculate negatively on things I  know so little about 

(In fairness though, some of my posts have been quite negative lately so apologies community, I'll take a break for a few weeks unless I have something positive to say.)

On Day One of the announcement I disclosed that we had been working with John Underwood continuously since last year and provided a link to when he appeared first on this forum.  The opening announcement gave a full assessment of the pros and cons we see in working with Identabit and our reasoning processes for why we decided, on balance, it was a good initiative.

I also disclosed the following early on:

   John found it to be the best available mailing list for what he wanted to do.

Yeah, and I'm sure you had nooooothing to do with it, right? Instead of negotiating a 20% drop on shareholders, as per the original social contract, you negotiated 10 % to the community and 10% to your private coin where you own 100% of the supply (or 99% of the potential future supply if you don't count Brownies released to date as yours). Doesn't anyone else see this as a serious breach of confidence?

To clarify: I don't actually believe you'll release 3 billion Brownies to yourselves prior to the snapshot, but I am sure that you'll try to get away with as much as the marks will let you.

It was John's decision.  I pointed it out to him as an option when he explained what he wanted to accomplish.

The numbers are 20% to BTS and 20% to Brownie.PTS in the genesis supply.  Read up on Proof of Appreciation at IDentabit.com to understand how a fixed amount of limited new supply is trickled into circulation (like Bitcoin and BitShares) but in such a way as to preserve value for genesis hodlers.   No appreciation -- no new supply.

You can choose to view Brownies as a private coin or as a suggested list of Founders deserving shares based on an expert assessment of relative contribution to the company being formed.  How do you think any private company allocates shares among its Founders?

Ultimately, John is the decider.  If he doesn't like how the Brownie distribution is evolving he can always make adjustments.

And of course, also on Day 1 we disclosed our stake and involvement on the Identabit web site and via table in John's announcement on this forum.

The brownie sharedrop rewarded many others who indirectly helped make Identabit possible.

No sharedrops will occur on brownies which have not been distributed at the time of the drop.

So yeah, if I wasn't smiling all the time, I could easily keep a straight face. 

[Empirical1.2]

Wait, Dan and Stan are 2 out of the 4 for Identabit? And then Stan says with a straight face that the Brownie sharedrop awarded by Identabit was John Underwood's own personal decision and they didn't even influence it?

I joined Bitshares back in 2013 enthused by BM's philosophy, and even when the price was going down I held through as I believed the project needed support. Now I am starting to think (have been for sometime) that we were fooled.

If you scroll down the main website,  you get to 'The Originators'  who are receiving 10% of initial equity. http://identabit.com/

It may well have been John's decision though. I'm certainly not one to speculate negatively on things I  know so little about 

(In fairness though, some of my posts have been quite negative lately so apologies community, I'll take a break for a few weeks unless I have something positive to say.)

[sumantso]

Wait, Dan and Stan are 2 out of the 4 for Identabit? And then Stan says with a straight face that the Brownie sharedrop awarded by Identabit was John Underwood's own personal decision and they didn't even influence it?

I joined Bitshares back in 2013 enthused by BM's philosophy, and even when the price was going down I held through as I believed the project needed support. Now I am starting to think (have been for sometime) that we were fooled.

[Empirical1.2]

BTSX started trading on July 21st. It's average price during the Ether crowdsale was probably something like $0.025

would be happy as hell if we could reach that again but im kind of skeptical. what was once the average price, would now be a big achievement.

This year Dan has founded CNX, Brownies and Dan & Stan are also 2 of the 4 founders of IDentabit. I think he's also stated that he hasn't added to his BTS position for a looong time, even at these prices. So it's hard to discern how much faith they still have in BTS and their SuperDAC concept when they're diversifying so much elsewhere.

As a result, I think investors are fairly cautious and while BTS will rise on the 2.0 release it will probably have to start producing tangible results (new users and/or high BitAsset adoption) to get up to those levels again.

Edit: It's like before any of these businesses are profitable you're mostly investing in Dan & team's talent. It used to be that if you had $1000 you'd put it all in BTS to do that. Now if given the choice you might want to diversify between CNX, Brownies, IDBit and BTS. As a result BTS has suffered a bit.

You need to think bigger, Pinky.

It's not a fixed size pie.  All of these projects cross-reinforce each other while pursuing different parts of a very big world population. Soon, people will expect DPOS 2 performance from every chain and dismiss old Model-T's like bitcoin and its alts.  Identabit brings in people with totally different values and makes it easier to move into the freedom of BitShares after they take the training wheels off.  Brownies reward the doers in this community and it's the doers that will make BitShares grow.  Surprisingly only a few members of this forum have inquired about private investment in CNX directly, so that's only a theoretical worry.  But keep in mind, the more resources CNX has the faster the pie I mentioned will grow.  Right now our biggest anticipated source of revenue in the near term is driving business to BitShares.

Better to have people diversifying within the BitShares family where resources get funneled back in to developing new projects while offloading development costs from BitShares.  Believe me, Bytemaster has multiple industry-disrupting plans queued up clear out into next year already.  To do that we need to raise more funds and get more independent entrepreneurs working on them in parallel.

Meanwhile, I have literally bet the family farm on BitShares - mortgaged it to the hilt - all in.  And most of Dan's net worth is similarly so invested.  He hasn't added to his holdings because he has no other source of income (yet) to buy more BTS and the personal holdings he has are going to pay salaries.   

The SuperDAC concept has grown into the BitShares Exchange Network (BEN).   That makes it a super-duper-DAC because it is also serving as the backbone for many manned not just unmanned businesses.  How many announcements and pages of posts have I devoted to Big BEN this summer?  How can you say "It's hard to discern?"

You shouldn't speculate negatively on that which you know so little about.

If you want to speculate in a complete vacuum of knowledge, speculate positively.  It will be better for all of us. 

I appreciate that you guys are extremely talented, have much larger plans and that some decisions were born of necessity and others are to a degree symbiotic but I fear you might be spreading your market value too thin at this particular stage as I indicated above.

Graphene itself seems like a triumph & I wish you luck. I am mostly taking a wait and see attitude over the coming weeks.

You shouldn't speculate negatively on that which you know so little about.

If you want to speculate in a complete vacuum of knowledge, speculate positively.  It will be better for all of us. 

Fortunately unlike Brownie holders, I'm free to speculate as I choose 

I seem to recall similar advice given multiple times pre-merger & I would argue on that occasion my negative expectations were confirmed & I'm in less of a financial hole as a result of thinking & speculating critically and independently.

The share price itself is an aggregate of speculation which is clearly negative this year and arguably post IDBit announcement.

I know you think that if you could silence a few critics or have moderated threads, that the aggregate perception could become more positive & as a result we would all be helped by a rising BTS price, however this Chinese approach, is not effective. You have to address the cause not the symptoms.

My intention when I was anti-dilution and merger was to help BitShares because I sincerely believed you had a winner in BTSX & that the other measures would reduce the overall size of the pie drastically. Similarly here, I believe you're at risk of making the overall pie smaller if you don't focus on baking the BTS pie first.

[Stan]

BTSX started trading on July 21st. It's average price during the Ether crowdsale was probably something like $0.025

would be happy as hell if we could reach that again but im kind of skeptical. what was once the average price, would now be a big achievement.

This year Dan has founded CNX, Brownies and Dan & Stan are also 2 of the 4 founders of IDentabit. I think he's also stated that he hasn't added to his BTS position for a looong time, even at these prices. So it's hard to discern how much faith they still have in BTS and their SuperDAC concept when they're diversifying so much elsewhere.

As a result, I think investors are fairly cautious and while BTS will rise on the 2.0 release it will probably have to start producing tangible results (new users and/or high BitAsset adoption) to get up to those levels again.

Edit: It's like before any of these businesses are profitable you're mostly investing in Dan & team's talent. It used to be that if you had $1000 you'd put it all in BTS to do that. Now if given the choice you might want to diversify between CNX, Brownies, IDBit and BTS. As a result BTS has suffered a bit.

You need to think bigger, Pinky.

It's not a fixed size pie.  All of these projects cross-reinforce each other while pursuing different parts of a very big world population. Soon, people will expect DPOS 2 performance from every chain and dismiss old Model-T's like bitcoin and its alts.  Identabit brings in people with totally different values and makes it easier to move into the freedom of BitShares after they take the training wheels off.  Brownies reward the doers in this community and it's the doers that will make BitShares grow.  Surprisingly only a few members of this forum have inquired about private investment in CNX directly, so that's only a theoretical worry.  But keep in mind, the more resources CNX has the faster the pie I mentioned will grow.  Right now our biggest anticipated source of revenue in the near term is driving business to BitShares.

Better to have people diversifying within the BitShares family where resources get funneled back in to developing new projects while offloading development costs from BitShares.  Believe me, Bytemaster has multiple industry-disrupting plans queued up clear out into next year already.  To do that we need to raise more funds and get more independent entrepreneurs working on them in parallel.

Meanwhile, I have literally bet the family farm on BitShares - mortgaged it to the hilt - all in.  And most of Dan's net worth is similarly so invested.  He hasn't added to his holdings because he has no other source of income (yet) to buy more BTS and the personal holdings he has are going to pay salaries.   

The SuperDAC concept has grown into the BitShares Exchange Network (BEN).   That makes it a super-duper-DAC because it is also serving as the backbone for many manned not just unmanned businesses.  How many announcements and pages of posts have I devoted to Big BEN this summer?  How can you say "It's hard to discern?"

You shouldn't speculate negatively on that which you know so little about.

If you want to speculate in a complete vacuum of knowledge, speculate positively.  It will be better for all of us. 

[Ander]

Yeah it would take a lot for BTS to get back up there, especially with BTC down near $200.  Its was more than twice that back when BTS was high.

The problem is that every person who has ever bought Bitshares is currently a bagholder, and a bunch of them would probably love to get out if the price returns to what they paid.  Bitshares will have to work well and attract new users in order for the price to rise.

[Empirical1.2]

BTSX started trading on July 21st. It's average price during the Ether crowdsale was probably something like $0.025

would be happy as hell if we could reach that again but im kind of skeptical. what was once the average price, would now be a big achievement.

This year Dan has founded CNX, Brownies and Dan & Stan are also 2 of the 4 founders of IDentabit. I think he's also stated that he hasn't added to his BTS position for a looong time, even at these prices. So it's hard to discern how much faith they still have in BTS and their SuperDAC concept when they're diversifying so much elsewhere.

As a result, I think investors are fairly cautious and while BTS will rise on the 2.0 release it will probably have to start producing tangible results (new users and/or high BitAsset adoption) to get up to those levels again.

Edit: It's like before any of these businesses are profitable you're mostly investing in Dan & team's talent. It used to be that if you had $1000 you'd put it all in BTS to do that. Now if given the choice you might want to diversify between CNX, Brownies, IDBit and BTS. As a result BTS has suffered a bit.

[Akado]

BTSX started trading on July 21st. It's average price during the Ether crowdsale was probably something like $0.025

would be happy as hell if we could reach that again but im kind of skeptical. what was once the average price, would now be a big achievement.

[Empirical1.2]

I'm used to in Bitshares regular and surprising changes.
In Augur, they corrected/extend 1 day the 10%off date and holders overreacted to it. They should try Bitshares and they will get used to it.

I'm sure a lot of the Bitshares community has diversified into Augur.

Why that?

Well if person A diversified $200 000 from BTS into Ether during their crowdsale, today he would be a millionaire, if he didn't today he would have less than $30 000. So it's tempting not to miss an Ethereum related crowdsale.

They still have another month to go though, so personally I'm holding off diversifying and seeing how BTS plays out in the next few weeks.

I dont believe that BTS was even trading yet when the Ether crowdsale was happening.

Yeah it was, I'm sure I worked out the numbers a few weeks ago. One minute...

I guess Protoshares was trading back then??

The Ether Sale ran for 42 days ending on September 2nd 2014.

BTSX started trading on July 21st. It's average price during the Ether crowdsale was probably something like $0.025

(So I was using the fact that Ether is worth about 500% more today than during crowdsale and BTS is circa 85% less than during Ether crowdsale. Cass though for example was very quick/smart and sold his Ether for nearly a 1000% return.)

[Ander]

I'm used to in Bitshares regular and surprising changes.
In Augur, they corrected/extend 1 day the 10%off date and holders overreacted to it. They should try Bitshares and they will get used to it.

I'm sure a lot of the Bitshares community has diversified into Augur.

Why that?

Well if person A diversified $200 000 from BTS into Ether during their crowdsale, today he would be a millionaire, if he didn't today he would have less than $30 000. So it's tempting not to miss an Ethereum related crowdsale.

They still have another month to go though, so personally I'm holding off diversifying and seeing how BTS plays out in the next few weeks.

I dont believe that BTS was even trading yet when the Ether crowdsale was happening.

Yeah it was, I'm sure I worked out the numbers a few weeks ago. One minute...

I guess Protoshares was trading back then??

[Empirical1.2]

I'm used to in Bitshares regular and surprising changes.
In Augur, they corrected/extend 1 day the 10%off date and holders overreacted to it. They should try Bitshares and they will get used to it.

I'm sure a lot of the Bitshares community has diversified into Augur.

Why that?

Well if person A diversified $200 000 from BTS into Ether during their crowdsale, today he would be a millionaire, if he didn't today he would have less than $30 000. So it's tempting not to miss an Ethereum related crowdsale.

They still have another month to go though, so personally I'm holding off diversifying and seeing how BTS plays out in the next few weeks.

I dont believe that BTS was even trading yet when the Ether crowdsale was happening.

Yeah it was, I'm sure I worked out the numbers a few weeks ago. One minute...

[Ander]

I'm used to in Bitshares regular and surprising changes.
In Augur, they corrected/extend 1 day the 10%off date and holders overreacted to it. They should try Bitshares and they will get used to it.

I'm sure a lot of the Bitshares community has diversified into Augur.

Why that?

Well if person A diversified $200 000 from BTS into Ether during their crowdsale, today he would be a millionaire, if he didn't today he would have less than $30 000. So it's tempting not to miss an Ethereum related crowdsale.

They still have another month to go though, so personally I'm holding off diversifying and seeing how BTS plays out in the next few weeks.

I dont believe that BTS was even trading yet when the Ether crowdsale was happening.

[Empirical1.2]

I'm used to in Bitshares regular and surprising changes.
In Augur, they corrected/extend 1 day the 10%off date and holders overreacted to it. They should try Bitshares and they will get used to it.

I'm sure a lot of the Bitshares community has diversified into Augur.

Why that?

Well if person A diversified $200 000 from BTS into Ether during their crowdsale, today he would be a millionaire, if he didn't today he would have less than $30 000. So it's tempting not to miss an Ethereum related crowdsale.

They still have another month to go though, so personally I'm holding off diversifying and seeing how BTS plays out in the next few weeks.

[xeroc]

I'm used to in Bitshares regular and surprising changes.
In Augur, they corrected/extend 1 day the 10%off date and holders overreacted to it. They should try Bitshares and they will get used to it.

I'm sure a lot of the Bitshares community has diversified into Augur.

Why that?

[luckybit]

I'm used to in Bitshares regular and surprising changes.
In Augur, they corrected/extend 1 day the 10%off date and holders overreacted to it. They should try Bitshares and they will get used to it.

I'm sure a lot of the Bitshares community has diversified into Augur.