Author Topic: Payments in real time  (Read 3124 times)

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Offline Akado

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Payments in real time
« on: August 25, 2015, 09:07:07 pm »
With high fees we can't possibly perform microtransactions, this has been addressed already. But we need bitassets to have liquidity and we are partnering up with new businesses.

Is there a way to solve this problem with microtransactions? We could have a large market waiting our there for real time payments, however we can't do that with high fees. Not to mention it would bring the needed liquidity to bitAssets. We could bring in new partners.

I remembered this when I saw https://faradam.com/
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Offline matador123

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Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2015, 04:13:08 am »
Was there ever a conclusion reached regarding microtransactions in BitShares 2.0? If so, can someone point me to the thread? I think that's a terrible opportunity to miss out on, especially with smartcoins. I think a big part of the reason nanopayments haven't taken off is because of Bitcoin's volatility.

Offline luckybit

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Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2015, 04:55:40 am »
With high fees we can't possibly perform microtransactions, this has been addressed already. But we need bitassets to have liquidity and we are partnering up with new businesses.

Is there a way to solve this problem with microtransactions? We could have a large market waiting our there for real time payments, however we can't do that with high fees. Not to mention it would bring the needed liquidity to bitAssets. We could bring in new partners.

I remembered this when I saw https://faradam.com/

We need microtransactions. If that means lowering fees then lower the fees, but we need microtransactions.

People will not use BitUSD if it doesn't support microtransactions. I think microtransactions are critical enough to sacrifice the high fees just to have an advantage over Paypal and Bitcoin. The main selling point of cryptocurrency is actually microtransactions so if we dont' have that then there isn't anything special about BitUSD.

To me the special capability of BitUSD would be if you could monetize the entire Internet with microtransactions.

Was there ever a conclusion reached regarding microtransactions in BitShares 2.0? If so, can someone point me to the thread? I think that's a terrible opportunity to miss out on, especially with smartcoins. I think a big part of the reason nanopayments haven't taken off is because of Bitcoin's volatility.

Agreed. Microtransactions are critical. Nano payments are critical to the success of cryptocurrency and of BitUSD. This is because everyone can earn nano payments, they are designed to be easy to earn by anyone, so for most people their first earning of a cryptocurrency will be some sort of microtransaction.

BitUSD would be the microtransaction to start, but then what about BitGoog and so on? I think this is critical.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 05:01:15 am by luckybit »
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Offline Samupaha

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Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2015, 05:25:17 am »
If somebody has great ideas how to implement microtransactions, let hear them! I would like to have them too, but unfortunately it is not so simple.

For example, Bitcoin pays most of the transaction costs with inflation. Right now the average cost per transaction is approximately $7.5 and that is awfully high.

If I have understood this right, Bitshares will charge a cost depending on how much resources a transaction needs from the network. That is a healthy way of looking this and helps the blockchain to be profitable in the long run. Blockchain shouldn't be a charity for some people to use it without paying.

Offline Thom

Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2015, 06:08:28 am »
Many can't see the forest but for the trees. i.e. sticky posts right under your very noses.

A discussion of micropayments can be found in the P & P index.

Don't miss the latest post there either, where the issue of accounting is raised about all costs of the ecosystem. To determine if micropayments are economically viable one must fist ascertain the cost to provide them, and I have not seen any type of discussion about that in the form of a comprehensive income / expense statement for the entire BitShares operation.

It's a difficult task to accomplish when so many variables are in play and changing all the time. The analysis may therefore be more of a projection than hard cold empirical numbers.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 06:25:58 am by Thom »
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Offline Shentist

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Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2015, 06:12:04 am »
Was there ever a conclusion reached regarding microtransactions in BitShares 2.0? If so, can someone point me to the thread? I think that's a terrible opportunity to miss out on, especially with smartcoins. I think a big part of the reason nanopayments haven't taken off is because of Bitcoin's volatility.

I didn't know it exactly i think it was in 1 mumble sessions asked and Bytemaster said, the network can not support microtransactions because you need more then 100.000 TPS on the long run. The expectation is, that we need this already for the internal exchange etc. so we have no capacity to run microtrasactions on the same network. So far my understanding!

Offline luckybit

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Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2015, 07:37:27 am »
Many can't see the forest but for the trees. i.e. sticky posts right under your very noses.

A discussion of micropayments can be found in the P & P index.

Don't miss the latest post there either, where the issue of accounting is raised about all costs of the ecosystem. To determine if micropayments are economically viable one must fist ascertain the cost to provide them, and I have not seen any type of discussion about that in the form of a comprehensive income / expense statement for the entire BitShares operation.

It's a difficult task to accomplish when so many variables are in play and changing all the time. The analysis may therefore be more of a projection than hard cold empirical numbers.

The issue is Bitshares needs adoption. If you can't attract people through micropayments how exactly will you get a person to work to earn a whole BitUSD? If people cannot earn a BitUSD through surveys, clicking ads, or watching ads, how will they learn the value of BitUSD? Don't assume that new people are going to want to buy BitUSD or that everyone has Bitcoin to trade to get BitUSD.

There aren't enough ways to earn BitUSD and that is suppressing the marketing effort. Micropayments would immediately fix that but would come at a price. In my opinion the price is worth it because the fees can come from many places.
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Offline Thom

Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2015, 02:37:45 pm »
Many can't see the forest but for the trees. i.e. sticky posts right under your very noses.

A discussion of micropayments can be found in the P & P index.

Don't miss the latest post there either, where the issue of accounting is raised about all costs of the ecosystem. To determine if micropayments are economically viable one must fist ascertain the cost to provide them, and I have not seen any type of discussion about that in the form of a comprehensive income / expense statement for the entire BitShares operation.

It's a difficult task to accomplish when so many variables are in play and changing all the time. The analysis may therefore be more of a projection than hard cold empirical numbers.

The issue is Bitshares needs adoption. If you can't attract people through micropayments how exactly will you get a person to work to earn a whole BitUSD? If people cannot earn a BitUSD through surveys, clicking ads, or watching ads, how will they learn the value of BitUSD? Don't assume that new people are going to want to buy BitUSD or that everyone has Bitcoin to trade to get BitUSD.

There aren't enough ways to earn BitUSD and that is suppressing the marketing effort. Micropayments would immediately fix that but would come at a price. In my opinion the price is worth it because the fees can come from many places.

Perhaps so, I don't agree or disagree with that point.

You seem to miss my main point is that WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT how to sustain a business (i.e. blockchain operations) to support them. I don't believe that subsidizing them from other means is sustainable, except from a charity basis.

I'm saying we need to do a comprehensive analysis of costs and income before we can know if micropayments are economically viable and I see NOBODY taking on that challenge, or if they have they have not disclosed it to the community here.

What I'm talking about is not rocket science, it's simply good business. If we can't do this for our own blockchain it makes us look like hypocrites when we say bitcoin isn't sustainable due to the cost of their security model.
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Offline matador123

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Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2015, 03:31:48 pm »
Many can't see the forest but for the trees. i.e. sticky posts right under your very noses.

A discussion of micropayments can be found in the P & P index.

Don't miss the latest post there either, where the issue of accounting is raised about all costs of the ecosystem. To determine if micropayments are economically viable one must fist ascertain the cost to provide them, and I have not seen any type of discussion about that in the form of a comprehensive income / expense statement for the entire BitShares operation.

It's a difficult task to accomplish when so many variables are in play and changing all the time. The analysis may therefore be more of a projection than hard cold empirical numbers.

The issue is Bitshares needs adoption. If you can't attract people through micropayments how exactly will you get a person to work to earn a whole BitUSD? If people cannot earn a BitUSD through surveys, clicking ads, or watching ads, how will they learn the value of BitUSD? Don't assume that new people are going to want to buy BitUSD or that everyone has Bitcoin to trade to get BitUSD.

There aren't enough ways to earn BitUSD and that is suppressing the marketing effort. Micropayments would immediately fix that but would come at a price. In my opinion the price is worth it because the fees can come from many places.

Perhaps so, I don't agree or disagree with that point.

You seem to miss my main point is that WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT how to sustain a business (i.e. blockchain operations) to support them. I don't believe that subsidizing them from other means is sustainable, except from a charity basis.

I'm saying we need to do a comprehensive analysis of costs and income before we can know if micropayments are economically viable and I see NOBODY taking on that challenge, or if they have they have not disclosed it to the community here.

What I'm talking about is not rocket science, it's simply good business. If we can't do this for our own blockchain it makes us look like hypocrites when we say bitcoin isn't sustainable due to the cost of their security model.

I have no idea how to perform those calculations, but I very much hope someone does. That last discussion of micropayments veered off in a completely different direction and didn't reach a conclusion. I agree completely with @luckybit. Nanopayments are one of the main selling points of smartcoins. From what I remember, BM's analysis of BTS 2.0 was that people will be willing to pay slightly higher fees than other cryptos because of the network effect and wanting to operate on the same network as other people. But we're talking about internet currency, and nanopayments are going to be a huge part of that in the future (IMHO). Who is going to want to join a network with fees so high that they can't tip, pay small amounts for content, etc?

Offline EstefanTT

Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2015, 04:39:34 pm »
There were a couple of threads about it after the 8th of June announcements.

I recall someone saying that the cost for 1 transactions was about 0.01$. I'm not totally sure of that.

The problem I see is that not only micro payments are problematics.
If the newspaper shop or coffe bar in your street would want to give a shot to crypto and accept BitUSD. There would be 0.20$ involve in the payment with free acount users.
It's way too hight % of the price of a newspaper, a coffee, a coke or a beer (5-20%).
No merchant would ever accept this kind of payment system and it's even not micro payments.

Would it be possible to calculate how much is the cost of a transaction. Someone smart ... not me.
Set this fee price (+10% to be slightly profitable) for any transaction where it represente more than 1% of the total payment price.
It would be like the very minimum transaction fee for anyone when the amount is below a predefined amount.
The fees would increase gradually  until reaching our actual 0.20$.




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Offline infovortice2013

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Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2015, 05:05:29 pm »
 +5%
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Offline luckybit

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Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2015, 08:41:17 am »
In order for a digital currency to catch on there has to be a way for people to earn it globally. If it's impossible to earn then no one will hold any of it, and no one will be able to spend it.

Mining Bitcoins doubled as marketing. Anyone could earn Bitcoins by mining it, and learn about Bitcoin by mining and spending it.  Earning Bitcoin also has to be a micropayment based process because not everyone is a programmer, or deeply involved in the community, so you need ways for every day people to do mechanical turk type jobs to earn tokens.

We can't expect most people to be business owners. Most people aren't entrepreneurs and it shouldn't be a pre-requisite that you have to be an entrepreneur in order to acquire smart coins. Sure that is one way to acquire them but if it is to go mainstream then people need a reliable method of earning them.

Tips aren't reliable because some other human being has to consciously give you a tip, so it's not going to create an economy. The only way to create a real economy is to start with micropayments, otherwise you're talking about people getting paid in their national currency and you're trying to convince people who don't know what Bitshares is to go and buy BitUSD with real USD? Why would anyone do that?

On the other hand I could imagine many people would want to earn a penny a second, and if we look at psychology,  the reward structures work on the fact that the rewards are frequent, consistent, immediate. When the rewards are inconsistent, or when rewards are infrequent, it doesn't have the same effect. This is why people on Facebook receiving likes are more rewarded than people receiving tips, because likes are more frequent and consistent to receive than tips which are a novelty.

Micropayments in my opinion are the only way cryptocurrency will ever catch on with the mainstream. If it's just like Paypal then people will just use Paypal. If on the other hand people can earn some micro fraction of a cent every second, that is how you could literally make everyone into an active participant in the community. After everyone is receiving these micropayments, getting paid by the minute, or by the second, instead of by the hour, now you have a use case that Paypal and banks cannot duplicate.

An economy where people get paid by the second is faster. At the same time micropayments would be more inclusive because you could take in the whole global economy, where in some countries and in some situations, people are willing to work for $1 an hour, and when they are able to see their money rise by the second, it has a huge psychological impact. People who have played video games know what I'm talking about.

So I hope developers figure this problem out in the long term. In the short term we can get away with not having micropayments but in the long term we can't. If we want Bitshares to have useful currencies that people outside of Silicon Valley are willing to use, then we have to bring in micropayments because honestly that is how most people get paid or will get paid on the Internet.

An idea for a proposal:

We need a site called "EarnBitshares".  This website could be a sister site to "MineBitshares". The purpose of this site should be to show people who have time and no money, how to earn Bitshares through a sort of mechanical turk, or through watching advertisements, or through some other guaranteed mechanism where if a person is willing to put in time they are guaranteed to earn Bitshares at the end of the process. It doesn't even matter how much they earn because different people around the world don't have the same cost of living.

Reference
http://www.bitcoinget.com/
 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 08:44:24 am by luckybit »
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2015, 08:47:06 am »
An idea for a proposal:

We need a site called "EarnBitshares".  This website could be a sister site to "MineBitshares". The purpose of this site should be to show people who have time and no money, how to earn Bitshares through a sort of mechanical turk, or through watching advertisements, or through some other guaranteed mechanism where if a person is willing to put in time they are guaranteed to earn Bitshares at the end of the process. It doesn't even matter how much they earn because different people around the world don't have the same cost of living.

Reference
http://www.bitcoinget.com/
 
I like this ... why not combine this with a bounty program like: https://www.bountysource.com/
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Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2015, 08:56:29 am »
If I understood correctly, referral fees can go to 80%. So in effect the actual transaction cost may be lowered to a fifth if required.

Maybe make the referral percentage flexible (Set by the referrer) and let them fight it out.

As for true microtransactions, it will not be possible in this framework, and best leave it for a separate project to tackle. BTS can not be expected to everything.

Offline luckybit

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Re: Payments in real time
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2015, 09:23:05 am »
An idea for a proposal:

We need a site called "EarnBitshares".  This website could be a sister site to "MineBitshares". The purpose of this site should be to show people who have time and no money, how to earn Bitshares through a sort of mechanical turk, or through watching advertisements, or through some other guaranteed mechanism where if a person is willing to put in time they are guaranteed to earn Bitshares at the end of the process. It doesn't even matter how much they earn because different people around the world don't have the same cost of living.

Reference
http://www.bitcoinget.com/
 
I like this ... why not combine this with a bounty program like: https://www.bountysource.com/

Here is a shareholder proposal: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18166.msg232192.html#msg232192

The idea is to extend MineBitshares into a conglomerate, which includes sister sites like EarnBitshares, WinBitshares, and so on. Show the proposal to the MineBitshares team and find out if it's worth implementing. I think if it should be implemented it shouldn't be exactly like everything else out there because Bitshares 2.0 has unique features or upcoming features to consider.

But it would help solve one of the main problems which is marketing,  while also creating an active economy. The iCEO style solution is how you could turn it into a service which any business could make use of and since a lot of people in the crypto community don't like centralization, hierarchy, or inefficiency, if you can show that this website and accompanying app is able to help startups save money, or help people with the mundane stuff like research and paperwork? There could be a market niche.

Subject the proposal to peer review and reformulate it until a workable solution is found. It seems essential to have many easy ways to earn Bitshares otherwise it shouldn't surprise anyone if no one uses Bitshares.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 09:24:43 am by luckybit »
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