The way how gateways should work.

[Chris4210]

There is still no answer for whales. I met some interested whales but they don´t like the high collateral wall. We might need to change our sales approach too and talk about a real "BTS" standards. The next evolution in financial policies.

[Akado]

I think BitShares UIA are similiar to Ripple now. Every Gateway (Exchange) is issuing their own UIA and you need market makers between each Gateway (!!) to keep the liquidity flowing. In my opinions , that is the biggest problem with Ripple today.

You need to trust each Gateway(Exchange) seperatly and each Gateway UIA has its own price.

The biggest problem for the internal system are the unpredictable risk to bootstrap the liquidity. Since we have 200% Collateral, we need to put 200 BTC in value on the chain to get 100 BitBTC. How can we motivate whales to lock away so much liquidity?

The first million BitBTC is hard to bootstrap

I am still looking forward for the direct Fiat to BitFiat deposit. When can i take EUR and buy BitEUR on the chain directly?

Exactly, having to trust a third party defeats BitShares' purpose

[kenCode]

I think BitShares UIA are similiar to Ripple now. Every Gateway (Exchange) is issuing their own UIA and you need market makers between each Gateway (!!) to keep the liquidity flowing. In my opinions , that is the biggest problem with Ripple today.

You need to trust each Gateway(Exchange) seperatly and each Gateway UIA has its own price.

The biggest problem for the internal system are the unpredictable risk to bootstrap the liquidity. Since we have 200% Collateral, we need to put 200 BTC in value on the chain to get 100 BitBTC. How can we motivate whales to lock away so much liquidity?

The first million BitBTC is hard to bootstrap

I am still looking forward for the direct Fiat to BitFiat deposit. When can i take EUR and buy BitEUR on the chain directly?

bingo, bingo.. and, bingo.

[Chris4210]

I think BitShares UIA are similiar to Ripple now. Every Gateway (Exchange) is issuing their own UIA and you need market makers between each Gateway (!!) to keep the liquidity flowing. In my opinions , that is the biggest problem with Ripple today.

You need to trust each Gateway(Exchange) seperatly and each Gateway UIA has its own price.

The biggest problem for the internal system are the unpredictable risk to bootstrap the liquidity. Since we have 200% Collateral, we need to put 200 BTC in value on the chain to get 100 BitBTC. How can we motivate whales to lock away so much liquidity?

The first million BitBTC is hard to bootstrap

I am still looking forward for the direct Fiat to BitFiat deposit. When can i take EUR and buy BitEUR on the chain directly?

[fav]

all gateways should be "end-to-end" (BTC<->bitBTC) and "single transfer" gateways. I should send my real BTC to address generated in my wallet , and this should cause that bitBTC will appear in my bitshares wallet.

I agree 100000000000% !!
 

I guess that's how most people thought it would work, but it changed now. With UIA we still dont know if the gateway is solvent enough to pay them back when you want to change your GATEWAY.BTC for BTC. Unless I'm missing something, that completely defeats the purpose of what we're doing.
I also thought that any exchange using OpenLedger (ie CCEDK) would mirror every trade done on Openledger/Lightclient. The exchange site would just be the front end of OpenLedger. That's also what I thought it would happen in the beginning, not sure about it now.

I hope that with liquidity Gateways would eventually start placing collateral to create BitBTC and other bitAssets instead of just creating IOUS. I think thats acceptable now since we dont have liquidity and enough funds to short 100 btc into existence but as liquidity grows they should slowly start to convert IOUs into bitAssets.

That's the only and single way every business on bts will be able to share a single order book. If everyone uses bitAssets. If we have a market for each IOU to trade against each other we will have many many markets with no liquidity. We need to wrap alll of that into a single one in the future. I understand that's not a sustainable method now bc of the lack of funds, but should be seriously considered in the future.

yeah, that's what I thought too... it's weird to see them going the UIA route now, when it was clearly communicated that they move their orderbooks on chain

[Akado]

all gateways should be "end-to-end" (BTC<->bitBTC) and "single transfer" gateways. I should send my real BTC to address generated in my wallet , and this should cause that bitBTC will appear in my bitshares wallet.

I agree 100000000000% !!
 

I guess that's how most people thought it would work, but it changed now. With UIA we still dont know if the gateway is solvent enough to pay them back when you want to change your GATEWAY.BTC for BTC. Unless I'm missing something, that completely defeats the purpose of what we're doing.
I also thought that any exchange using OpenLedger (ie CCEDK) would mirror every trade done on Openledger/Lightclient. The exchange site would just be the front end of OpenLedger. That's also what I thought it would happen in the beginning, not sure about it now.

I hope that with liquidity Gateways would eventually start placing collateral to create BitBTC and other bitAssets instead of just creating IOUS. I think thats acceptable now since we dont have liquidity and enough funds to short 100 btc into existence but as liquidity grows they should slowly start to convert IOUs into bitAssets.

That's the only and single way every business on bts will be able to share a single order book. If everyone uses bitAssets. If we have a market for each IOU to trade against each other we will have many many markets with no liquidity. We need to wrap alll of that into a single one in the future. I understand that's not a sustainable method now bc of the lack of funds, but should be seriously considered in the future.

Otherwise we won't have the shared orderbooks everyone talks about with great liquidity. I mean, we can, if every business joins OpenLedger. Others will be left out but that way OpenLedger has the entire monopoly. The way I mentioned every single business would indeed share the same orderbook assuming they all trade BTC, LTC, GOLD; SILVER, etc unique assets would probably be created via IOUs but that's different. The main assets should be shared by everyone in order to increase liquidity and market depth

[kenCode]

all gateways should be "end-to-end" (BTC<->bitBTC) and "single transfer" gateways. I should send my real BTC to address generated in my wallet , and this should cause that bitBTC will appear in my bitshares wallet.

I agree 100000000000% !!
 

[dannotestein]

We need backed assets for price discovery on the BitShares markets. Otherwise, instant exchanges like BlockTrades/Meta would need to rely on external markets (e.g. Poloniex/btc38/etc) for their pricing mechanisms. In my view, we need a combination of backed assets and instant exchanges: backed assets allowing for price discovery by serious traders, and instant exchanges acting as convenience services for people who just want a particular asset and don't want to mess with trading it (instant exchanges act as market makers providing instant liquidity near the current price).

[fuzzy]

this thread taught me a great deal.

[monsterer]

The ideal way for this to work is that all gateways issue bitAssets instead of their own IOUs. This is problematic tho, because bitAssets are actually different currencies than the thing they track. They don't trade at parity and have their own serious liquidity issues to contend with, making the risk and expense for working with much higher than with IOUs for the gateway.

[GaltReport]

It would be nice if someone would explain the whole concept(s) of "gateways" because up until recently I thought of it only as a way to get BTC converted to BitShares BTS and "Smartcoins" but now it seems that they are also used to store IOUs for the "real" BTC/ETH etc...in your Bitshares wallet which are supposedly redeemable on their respective exchange (counterparty risk I guess if you hold it in Bitshares for a long time) for real BTC/ETH.

When you use a traditional exchange, you essentially hold an IOU in their trading interface which is ultimately accounted on their private servers. Exchanges can instead issue their IOUs on the public blockchain, and since BitShares has a trading interface, we can trade there instead of on the private servers of an exchange. The idea with BitShares is that you can move from FIAT and Crypto into IOUs that are publicly accounted on the blockchain, and further, that you can move away from these IOUs that carry counterparty risk (you trust the exchange to back them) into SmartCoins that have collateral posted on the blockchain, trustlessly and autonomously ensuring that the value backing it is there.

Bytemaster has a good explanation here:

http://bytemaster.github.io/article/2015/01/05/The-Future-of-Crypto-Currency-Exchanges/

Okay, thanks very much I will read some more.

[CLains]

It would be nice if someone would explain the whole concept(s) of "gateways" because up until recently I thought of it only as a way to get BTC converted to BitShares BTS and "Smartcoins" but now it seems that they are also used to store IOUs for the "real" BTC/ETH etc...in your Bitshares wallet which are supposedly redeemable on their respective exchange (counterparty risk I guess if you hold it in Bitshares for a long time) for real BTC/ETH.

When you use a traditional exchange, you essentially hold an IOU in their trading interface which is ultimately accounted on their private servers. Exchanges can instead issue their IOUs on the public blockchain, and since BitShares has a trading interface, we can trade there instead of on the private servers of an exchange. The idea with BitShares is that you can move from FIAT and Crypto into IOUs that are publicly accounted on the blockchain, and further, that you can move away from these IOUs that carry counterparty risk (you trust the exchange to back them) into SmartCoins that have collateral posted on the blockchain, trustlessly and autonomously ensuring that the value backing it is there.

Bytemaster has a good explanation here:

http://bytemaster.github.io/article/2015/01/05/The-Future-of-Crypto-Currency-Exchanges/

[GaltReport]

It would be nice if someone would explain the whole concept(s) of "gateways" because up until recently I thought of it only as a way to get BTC converted to BitShares BTS and "Smartcoins" but now it seems that they are also used to store IOUs for the "real" BTC/ETH etc...in your Bitshares wallet which are supposedly redeemable on their respective exchange (counterparty risk I guess if you hold it in Bitshares for a long time) for real BTC/ETH.

[CLains]

The point of issuing IOUs was to move from FIAT to CRYPTO, because of regulation it is safer to move from FIAT to an IOU that the exchange retains control of (KYC/AML laws). As the poll hints, if there's no insurmountable technical or regulatory hurdles to going BTC -> bitBTC then it's obviously better.

[donkeypong]

We definitely need something more automatic than OPENx and TRADEx. That system is still built for nerds (I mean 'nerds' in a good way, but it's a finite market). This needs to be "click, click, click" easy for the average user.