The idea of to establish a BTS big shareholders’ club

[unreadPostsSinceLastVisit]

2, I think People are only interested in BTS, Bitcny and Bitusd. Too much other BTS assets may influence BTS development, because for no liquid.

I don't think it'd be worth it then. It would basically be rewarding the people who have the most BTS, when having BTS is it's own reward. And this would be at the expense of the blockchain! My answer to question 1 is we don't need it.

[BTS007]

1, I think the idea has two questions,
the first question is whether need to establish the big shareholders club,
the second question is how to set up.

2, I think People are only interested in BTS, Bitcny and Bitusd. Too much other BTS assets may influence BTS development, because for no liquid.

[unreadPostsSinceLastVisit]

So 50% of BTS profits would go to the biggest holders, and the remaining 50% would go to the fund to benefit all BTS holders?

My head would implode.

but if you guys wanna use brownie or whatever to encourage people to lock up BTS that's cool..

[Akado]

Isn't it exactely what the bond market is about. Loaning money and get interest ?
Any info in when it would be in place ?
If I remember well it's not a part of the recent BM proposal ? Why is that ? Isn't it one of the "big feature" we need ?

I think a bond market will do the trick.  We don't need another token to incentize holding.  Give real economic reasons  for holding

What they said. Bond Market is exactly for this, people who have their BTS sitting around doing nothing. We need it. Badly. However I don't know the list of stuff with higher priorities which needs to be done first. Anyone care to fill me in? Does UI necessarily need to be improved first or can it be done in parallel? What more is there to do before we implement a Bond Market? APIs... All the proposals BM mentioned on the other thread?

[EstefanTT]

Isn't it exactely what the bond market is about. Loaning money and get interest ?
Any info in when it would be in place ?
If I remember well it's not a part of the recent BM proposal ? Why is that ? Isn't it one of the "big feature" we need ?

[topcandle]

I think a bond market will do the trick.  We don't need another token to incentize holding.  Give real economic reasons  for holding

[mf-tzo]

Luckybit I value a lot your opinions I just don't want this to be manipulated by traders and this is something that needs more thorough thought..
See below some replies to yours..

why establish a big shareholders club and not let every physical person to participate by locking BTS and reward them brownies (or even better another UIA or even better some bitusd) for doing so in proportion to their bts blocked and time blocked?

If you use another UIA it should still include a percentage of Brownies.  I don't know how it would work with another UIA which represents a basket of sharedrop tokens (including Brownies) so I would think Brownies is the easiest way to go about it in the beginning.

Brownies is the easiest way for sure in the beginning but changing the rules later on will not make people happy. Also there is always a risk of manipulating the price of Brownies since they can be used by people to get dumped once received by hedging opportunity costs. Market is irrational many times.

Locking 1 M for 1 month and get awarded 50k of Brownies is like receiving something worth c$830 for blocking something worth c$3,330 for 1 month...I know that I would definitely go buy 1m BTS on the market and bock them for 1M if I get awarded 50k Brownies and probably dump them as soon as possible...So I don't think this is a good idea since Brownies will become worthless..

You wouldn't get your Brownies all at once. It should be you'd get them slowly over time just as if you're mining with the maximum over a fixed period of time being 50k. If you're only in it for the dollar amount then you'll dump your Brownies but people only in it for the dollar amount will probably not want to lock up 1 million Bitshares for some period of time.

I Agree with the steady release of Brownies. As I said above, don't think that market participants won't find ways to mamupulate the price of Brownies..

Also who said it has to be 1 month? The amount of time could have a minimum and a maximum, and be randomly set so that you don't even know for sure if it's going to be 1 month, or more, or less. The length of time could also be a configurable parameter which gets voted on, but in any case once you agree to lock up you can't unlock it prior to the time limit agreed to.

The point is if you dump your Brownies then you dump, but the person who doesn't dump would still have a better reputation than the person who does, and the longest locked holders could get additional UIA sharedrops according to the length of time they locked up. You can basically create an economy around reputation for being a whale supporter of BTS.

I think it would be more normal to earn 5% interest on the bitusd value of the locked BTS. For example, lock 1M BTS for 1 Month will earn c$15 bitusd. The question is from where the bitusd will be found?From the network reserve pool? Is this a good idea?

I don't think you get the point. The goal isn't to pay people USD. The goal is to encourage people to be long term holders by giving them additional future equity, sharedrops, opportunities, rewards, etc. So people who have a reputation for proving they are willing to lock up their Bitshares for long periods of time should be rewarded.

People who just want cash will develop the reputation for immediately cashing out and compared to the people who hold longer, they'd probably not have an equal reputation. So it's kind of like how with Proof of Stake the older coin age means something, the same could be for the amount of time you keep your BTS locked up. If you set it to lock up for 1 month then 50,000 Brownies, and if you go longer than this then you could get priority in sharedrops because people launching new businesses or who are doing sharedrops probably want people who will be willing to lock up and not dump.

Earning bitusd for locking bts is like earning interest on your investment in this case bts. A BTS supporter never touches a certain amount of BTS no matter what. I think they would want to receive some bitusd, bitgold or a stable asset for holding those BTS rather than playing the market again by receiving Brownies which one day maybe worth 1BTS and the next day 20BTS depending on the news at that time and market traders who follow close pump and dump..I do not want Brownies to get manipulated the way BTS have been manipulated by traders in the past and quite often actually. Imagine I am a whale and lock 5Mil BTS for 1 month and receive within this month 250k Brownies which I dump on the market everytime I receive them..After this 1month (or whatever period) Brownies would be worth much much less now so once my BTS are unlocked I buy up all the Brownies I previously sold and keep them and next month I lock less BTS. I end up with many Brownies so people think I am a long term supporter and manage to lock less BTS next month..This is just a very quick idea.I am pretty sure others with trading bots and more sophisticated techiniques will find much better ways to manipulate the prices.. So this is the reason I would prefer people to receive stable bitasstes for locking their BTS than Brownies..

[luckybit]

Considering that I only earned about 30k working for BTS for 2 yrs, I don't think locking 1M shares up is actually "worth" 50k BROWNIE.PTS .. </opinion>

besides that, I like the idea ... but wouldn't want to be put on a "list"

Do you think 1 million BTS will ever be worth more than $30,000? Do you want it to happen sooner rather than later?

The more BTS is worth, the more your Brownies are worth, and if someone locks up a lot of BTS then people being paid in BTS for their work will get better reward for their work. The point being that while it might seem not to be in your self interest if someone gets a lot of Brownies for supporting BTS as a whale, it's indirectly helping Brownies.

Of course that is just my opinion and none of us really know how much Brownies will ultimately be worth anyway.

[luckybit]

why establish a big shareholders club and not let every physical person to participate by locking BTS and reward them brownies (or even better another UIA or even better some bitusd) for doing so in proportion to their bts blocked and time blocked?

If you use another UIA it should still include a percentage of Brownies.  I don't know how it would work with another UIA which represents a basket of sharedrop tokens (including Brownies) so I would think Brownies is the easiest way to go about it in the beginning.

Locking 1 M for 1 month and get awarded 50k of Brownies is like receiving something worth c$830 for blocking something worth c$3,330 for 1 month...I know that I would definitely go buy 1m BTS on the market and bock them for 1M if I get awarded 50k Brownies and probably dump them as soon as possible...So I don't think this is a good idea since Brownies will become worthless..

You wouldn't get your Brownies all at once. It should be you'd get them slowly over time just as if you're mining with the maximum over a fixed period of time being 50k. If you're only in it for the dollar amount then you'll dump your Brownies but people only in it for the dollar amount will probably not want to lock up 1 million Bitshares for some period of time.

Also who said it has to be 1 month? The amount of time could have a minimum and a maximum, and be randomly set so that you don't even know for sure if it's going to be 1 month, or more, or less. The length of time could also be a configurable parameter which gets voted on, but in any case once you agree to lock up you can't unlock it prior to the time limit agreed to.

The point is if you dump your Brownies then you dump, but the person who doesn't dump would still have a better reputation than the person who does, and the longest locked holders could get additional UIA sharedrops according to the length of time they locked up. You can basically create an economy around reputation for being a whale supporter of BTS.

I think it would be more normal to earn 5% interest on the bitusd value of the locked BTS. For example, lock 1M BTS for 1 Month will earn c$15 bitusd. The question is from where the bitusd will be found?From the network reserve pool? Is this a good idea?

I don't think you get the point. The goal isn't to pay people USD. The goal is to encourage people to be long term holders by giving them additional future equity, sharedrops, opportunities, rewards, etc. So people who have a reputation for proving they are willing to lock up their Bitshares for long periods of time should be rewarded.

People who just want cash will develop the reputation for immediately cashing out and compared to the people who hold longer, they'd probably not have an equal reputation. So it's kind of like how with Proof of Stake the older coin age means something, the same could be for the amount of time you keep your BTS locked up. If you set it to lock up for 1 month then 50,000 Brownies, and if you go longer than this then you could get priority in sharedrops because people launching new businesses or who are doing sharedrops probably want people who will be willing to lock up and not dump.

[fuzzy]

@bytemaster

[luckybit]

Why not just give 50,000 Brownies to all who willingly lock up 1 million or more BTS?

It would have to be some sort of proof of faith. The blockchain has to be able to prove that the person has a certain amount of net worth locked up in BTS. It has to be able to verify that they cannot unlock it immediately. The stream of Brownies would have to be rewarded in frequent intervals, like with mining. Then it could work sort of like Proof of Stake in a way, where as long as you lock it up, and you continuously prove it, the Brownies get unlocked and released to you and the others according to the length of time they locked up.

This would reward people for taking opportunity costs.

Wow...i love this...and i would love it if another UIA did it too...

Page Bytemaster and the other devs to enable timelock or similar features in the UI so we can do it. I don't see why it couldn't be done. We could pile on the sharedrop UIAs to the people who lock up their wealth for the good of Bitshares 2.0 but it should probably start with Brownies.

Active supporters of Bitshares should have the benefits of that reputation. Investors who risk opportunity cost are in my opinion active supporters.

[mf-tzo]

why establish a big shareholders club and not let every physical person to participate by locking BTS and reward them brownies (or even better another UIA or even better some bitusd) for doing so in proportion to their bts blocked and time blocked?

Locking 1 M for 1 month and get awarded 50k of Brownies is like receiving something worth c$830 for blocking something worth c$3,330 for 1 month...I know that I would definitely go buy 1m BTS on the market and bock them for 1M if I get awarded 50k Brownies and probably dump them as soon as possible...So I don't think this is a good idea since Brownies will become worthless..

I think it would be more normal to earn 5% interest on the bitusd value of the locked BTS. For example, lock 1M BTS for 1 Month will earn c$15 bitusd. The question is from where the bitusd will be found?From the network reserve pool? Is this a good idea?

[fav]

I wonder if there are even 10 people with more than 5m bts

[xeroc]

Considering that I only earned about 30k working for BTS for 2 yrs, I don't think locking 1M shares up is actually "worth" 50k BROWNIE.PTS .. </opinion>

besides that, I like the idea ... but wouldn't want to be put on a "list"

[fuzzy]

Why not just give 50,000 Brownies to all who willingly lock up 1 million or more BTS?

It would have to be some sort of proof of faith. The blockchain has to be able to prove that the person has a certain amount of net worth locked up in BTS. It has to be able to verify that they cannot unlock it immediately. The stream of Brownies would have to be rewarded in frequent intervals, like with mining. Then it could work sort of like Proof of Stake in a way, where as long as you lock it up, and you continuously prove it, the Brownies get unlocked and released to you and the others according to the length of time they locked up.

This would reward people for taking opportunity costs.

Wow...i love this...and i would love it if another UIA did it too...