Author Topic: biteur  (Read 2013 times)

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Offline mf-tzo

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biteur
« on: November 16, 2015, 08:14:45 pm »
I think I am confused...

Assuming one wants to transfer 10,000 or 100,000 eur and convert them to biteur what are the steps to do this under the current low liquidity and non existent biteur with the current system?

Thanks

Offline kuro112

Re: biteur
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2015, 08:39:20 pm »
correct me if im wrong but i think its just selling your bts for biteur at a certain price right?
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Offline Akado

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Re: biteur
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2015, 09:15:00 pm »
correct me if im wrong but i think its just selling your bts for biteur at a certain price right?

That's the problem, there's not enough bitEur in existence. It needs to be shorted I guess
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: biteur
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2015, 09:16:04 pm »
But there are only 3,184 biteur on circulation and biteur holders sell them at ridiculous prices. Hence one must create  biteur by locking his bts as collateral and short sell biteur to himself. In the old system I knew how to do this. In the new system I am confused how this is done..

If I borrow i.e. 1,000 biteur from the system I need to lock 4,000 biteur worth of bts (i.e. 1.2 mil bts to have some peace of mind) to borrow 1,000 biteur..
So one has to buy 1.2 mil bts (spend 4,000 eur) just to borrow 1,000 biteur? But then I am exposed to bts price and this is not the purpose here..

all in all..i am still confused..what am I missing here?

Offline kuro112

Re: biteur
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2015, 12:24:22 am »
correct me if im wrong but i think its just selling your bts for biteur at a certain price right?

That's the problem, there's not enough bitEur in existence. It needs to be shorted I guess

funny story, im not the savy trader type!

can you explain how one shorts it into existence?

sounds interesting ^^
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Offline xeroc

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Re: biteur
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2015, 07:03:51 am »
correct me if im wrong but i think its just selling your bts for biteur at a certain price right?

That's the problem, there's not enough bitEur in existence. It needs to be shorted I guess

funny story, im not the savy trader type!

can you explain how one shorts it into existence?

sounds interesting ^^
Read the whitepaper: http://docs.bitshares.eu

[member=1532]mf-tzo[/member]
Yes, for every EUR, there needs to be several EUR worth of BTS been locked up in collateral. BUT it does not necessarily need to be YOU to lock up the BTS, you can simply put a EUR buy order into the BTS:EUR market (at a good price) and then traders will borrow and sell EUR to you using their BTS as collateral.
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Offline kuro112

Re: biteur
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2015, 07:12:02 am »
correct me if im wrong but i think its just selling your bts for biteur at a certain price right?

That's the problem, there's not enough bitEur in existence. It needs to be shorted I guess

funny story, im not the savy trader type!

can you explain how one shorts it into existence?

sounds interesting ^^
Read the whitepaper: http://docs.bitshares.eu


i have read most of it and i understand the majority of the technology, however im not sure that explains how you short a currency into existence? or if it does, what section?
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: biteur
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2015, 09:21:41 am »
I will read the doc later on..
so if i understand correctly what you are saying is that someone who wants to convert 50,000 euro to 50,000 bit eur he has first to go buy c15 mil BTS on the market and place an order to sell these 15 mil BTS for biteur at a fair price..

I think that even with a premium of 5% that order will not be filled easily and hence there will be a lot of exposure to the bts price by the time this order is filled right?

So essentially at this point trying to sell the idea of bitassets to serious investors who may have lots of money and be interested to convert their fiat to bitasset is not yet the right time.. :(

Offline cube

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Re: biteur
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2015, 09:32:14 am »
I will read the doc later on..
so if i understand correctly what you are saying is that someone who wants to convert 50,000 euro to 50,000 bit eur he has first to go buy c15 mil BTS on the market and place an order to sell these 15 mil BTS for biteur at a fair price..

I think that even with a premium of 5% that order will not be filled easily and hence there will be a lot of exposure to the bts price by the time this order is filled right?

So essentially at this point trying to sell the idea of bitassets to serious investors who may have lots of money and be interested to convert their fiat to bitasset is not yet the right time.. :(

Yes but there will be a 'market maker' who like to make some profit and dare to take the risk. He will create the liquidity for bitEUR and other bitassets.
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: biteur
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2015, 09:38:22 am »
I will read the doc later on..
so if i understand correctly what you are saying is that someone who wants to convert 50,000 euro to 50,000 bit eur he has first to go buy c15 mil BTS on the market and place an order to sell these 15 mil BTS for biteur at a fair price..

I think that even with a premium of 5% that order will not be filled easily and hence there will be a lot of exposure to the bts price by the time this order is filled right?

So essentially at this point trying to sell the idea of bitassets to serious investors who may have lots of money and be interested to convert their fiat to bitasset is not yet the right time.. :(

Yes but there will be a 'market maker' who like to make some profit and dare to take the risk. He will create the liquidity for bitEUR and other bitassets.

I have been waiting for these market makers for the last 2 years...Hopefully one day..lol..Anyway we should be happy that we are still here after all these changes and bad decisions of the past..I know things will get better.one day..

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Re: biteur
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2015, 09:44:45 am »
I Just printed!  ;) €10  EURO
and added €20 of liquidity to the Bitshares EURO market at  +5% spread

Offline xeroc

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Re: biteur
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2015, 11:11:36 am »
to buy 50k€ you only need to put 50k€ worth of BTS plus a premium into the BTS:EUR market .. someone WILL borrow EUR from the network and sell them to you.
Though it may take some time and may need a) a variable premium and b) several percent premium
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Offline Samupaha

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Re: biteur
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2015, 11:31:37 am »
Here is a simple explanation:

by borrowing say 100 USD you are neutral and simply owe the network 100 USD, which you now have and can return at anytime.
You have 100 USD
You owe 100 USD
you are net neutral.  long USD short USD

if you then sell the 100 USD in exchange for BTS :
you have BTS  (100 USD worth)
you owe 100 USD
So you are long BTS short USD

if instead you sell the 100 USD in exchange for BTC:
you have BTC (100 USD worth)
you owe 100 USD
so you are long BTC short USD

in any case you can be margin called if the value of the BTS backing the 100 USD borrowed falls below the margin requirements.  So you will be looking to ensure that whatever you are long maintains a USD value to either pay off what you borrowed or purchase enough BTS to further secure the borrowed USD.

For example if you used the 100 USD to buy BTC at $300 and BTC then went to $1000 while at the same time BTS went from $.004 to .0015 .  Depending on your collateralization you may be at risk of being margin called on the USD you borrowed.   So you could either sell $100 worth of BTC to pay off the borrow or sell some BTC for BTS to top up your collateral.

Offline lafona

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Re: biteur
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2015, 02:07:32 pm »
Another option could be to go through, CCEDK's bitEUR/EUR pair. This would allow your investor to bypass the potential bts volatility. I think it still suffers from the same liquidity issue, but placing an order at some premium, along with posting in the forum should work. With SEPA capabilities, I imagine this would be convenient for EU citizens on both sides of the transaction. bitEUR buyer deposits money from their bank account, bitEUR borrower/creator gets paid in EUR on ccedk which they can withdraw directly to their bank.

I was thinking more and if you already have such interested investors, you may want to talk to Ronny as well. I believe CCEDK/OL has been adding liquidity to some of their pairs and he may be able to help and come up with additional solutions as well.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 02:20:34 pm by lafona »
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: biteur
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2015, 03:44:20 pm »
Thank you all. You have been most helpful.  :)

For the time being I just want to make sure that if I do find these investors there are options available which I understand from the below that options will be available..

I just do not want to start promoting bitassets and promising things that I will not be able to deliver... My mentality is under promise and over deliver and not vice versa..