Author Topic: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?  (Read 23242 times)

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Offline Thom

I'm here because BitShares can absolutely transform the way society functions, because we can render existing structures of control obsolete, because we have a chance to rewrite the rules of the game.

BitShares is a socio-political pioneer species in the present day wasteland of fractured communities, failed states, wars: both financial, physical, digital, and extending into the realm of thought itself.  We are among the first in a whole new species of organism, which holds the potential to restore balance.

I recognize that BitShares must provide valuable services, and be profitable, to continue growing and developing.  And although I know there are a number of community members who share the vision of life, liberty, and property for all... I often feel a great mist shrouds the eyes of many into confusing the marker with the game, as they seem primarily focused on profit alone.

Everyone has their own reasons for being here, and I see no reason why we can't all succeed in our aims together.

The financial world, the exchanges; these are currently churning through trillions, and it would likely benefit us to capture even a fraction of this, but personally I'm focused on other applications, other use-cases, and don't have a whole lot of interest in this arena, though I do think there's enormous potential in capturing this energy for other developments, as economic jiu jitsu, to power all manner of other projects.  However if we gain the world only to lose our soul, then we will have lost.

I generally feel that everyone is severely underestimating the population of the planet which is ready to throw off it's chains and turn a new page in human history.  These are the people I intend to reach, and the tools are almost there.

We can make BitShares better, and provide for a multitude of use cases.  As to the fee debate, my only desire is that I wish there were an elegant solution for providing regional fee scaling so countries like China, and the US, could be on a more level playing field.  Everyone would benefit.
+5%

I'm still here because of the original vision though i do feel i have lost sight of it.  Bitshares can provide the tools that will create the new systems of immutable freedom of voluntary cooperation that will be crucial in bringing about a new system of control that is localized squarely with the individual.  I am whole heatedly on board for the ideas of civil disobedience and I see the state or government as the largest obstacle to a free and prosperous, peaceful society.  The state is the biggest instrument of organized crime.  It does nothing to protect any of us from anything.   Any effort to bow to state demands or regulations personally I feel is a shame and a waste of otherwise valiant efforts.  Though I completely understand the desire for cookie cuter, safe, draw within the state approved lines avenue its just not moves me personally, not what I'm here for.  I'm sure we can all make some money playing into the hands of the ruling class but that is not my core motivation for being here and ultimately a far greater opportunity lies outside these lines. 

I think we've made great progress and built a monster of a platform.  The exchange is a great feature but my heart pulls for greater ambitions and I'd be thrilled to see a wider scope and renewed focus on the core principles that brought me here.

I too am here for the original vision and I have never lost sight of that. I have been very disappointed on several occasions this year as one pivot after another seemed to move this community further and further away from that vision. So many efforts that diluted and weakened our resolve sent many running away in disillusionment. Why DNS was sacrificed and FMV deemed more important still puzzles the hell out of me.

I was almost asleep waiting for this community to regain the passion that would sharpen our focus back to the original vision. @bytemaster, I am grateful for your passion, creativity and stamina to see this project through to the success I know it can be, if we  C A N   J U S T   S T A Y   F O C U S E D !  It takes skillful leadership to set short, mid and long term goals in this crypto space. Sadly, to be honest, I just haven't seen much of that here in terms of the business decisions. You  R O C K   i t on the tech and innovation side, not so much with timing, marketing, PR and business. 

I agree with many of the posts in this thread. I am surprised not to see more of those who prioritize profit express themselves here as a counter to the OP. There's nothing wrong with profit, but like BM said we must not loose sight of our vision or we'll loose our primary reason for our efforts. Core values matter!

@bytemaster, it's admirable that you wish to see this community take over the governance of this project in a manor similar to how a father wants to see his son take on increasing responsibility as he matures. However, a good father will not give more responsibility to his son than he can handle for the level of maturity he is at. It takes wisdom to know the right balance to be given so as to lead and strengthen the son, to groom him for leadership. You know this, that's why we still have init committee members in place. This is one area you seem to have gotten it right. S O  glad to see that!!!

I can't tell you how great it is to see this thread. In the face of all of the current challenges before us I needed the reassurance your OP provided that tells me you haven't departed from your original vision. I seriously questioned that when Identibit was announced. However, the empirical evidence of our progress since 10/13 has not inspired confidence. I concur with the others that say we must stay focused on completing the exchange functionality to support traders and ease of use. Define clear objectives and stick with them. Jakub is really doing a great job for you, don't hinder his efforts but rather strengthen them by demonstrating to this community you are making measurable progress towards identified goals / milestones. You need a good project manager, someone that knows how to use Microsoft Project and keep a team focused and on task. Project is good to measure progress. I've seen it used very effectively and it actually helped the team's morale, b/c it allowed everyone to see everybody else's progress and stumbling blocks.

Finishing these will provide a major positive impact.  In no particular order:

UI / UX improvements using popular exchanges as a model
Referral program - refine as necessary, get Max Wright or SolomonSollarsNSense to create a video to highlight its use and benefits
Documentation, both for users and developers (i.e. API docs, examples and use cases)
UI for privacy features, if even just a minimal subset

I could add others, but these represent plenty of work and will be huge!  Devise a plan of attack (i.e. schedule, milestones) to reach these goals and show progress each week until completed.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

clout

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However I also tend to agree with most other people that it isn't the highest immediate priority right now, given how close the DEX is to being fantastic and given the cost. I think there is huge value in 'DEX + Liquid Smartcoins'

Historically with VOTE, Secret Sauce, 'What is a New User Worth?', Merger and a few other things, I get immediately concerned when I see posts signalling the current focus might not fit BM's vision/mission because it often precedes, my way or the highway, type direction changes.

I have to agree with Empirical.2 here. Stealth transfers in the GUI wallet are not our immediate priority. We have more liquidity now than we did on Bitshares 1.0 when we had TITAN. I don't think our target market is crypto diehards who want better encryption tools to protect their privacy. If you use bitcoin, right now, and aren't using stealth addresses and coin mixing (which is the majority of bitcoin users) your main goal isn't privacy, it's freedom of speech. A decentralized exchange where contracts are not enforced by a centralized state is the ultimate mechanism for exercising free speech. We will certainly need stealth transfers in the GUI at some point, but you shouldn't force this down shareholders throats like many of the other proposed changes, or you will risk single handedly driving down the price of BTS, which won't help you reach any of your aforementioned goals.

Anyone that is still here, clearly maintains the original vision that Bitshares was created in. We've solidified the WHY  time and time again. We need to solidify the HOW.

clout

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I'm with BM on this one. Privacy is absolutely essential to exchange function...

I agree.
We had privacy in bitshares 0.x

So why did it get taken away and then sold back to us for $45k?

good question...I'd imagine there are reasons though... i'm guessing due to the requirement that developers eat and its technically more challenging and time consuming than was thought previously...  BM?

It didn't get taken way. We got a better alternative that is functional on the protocol level (I've used it) but not implemented in the GUI

Tuck Fheman

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Oh year if you ask 1000 people on the street if they like their government or not, 900 of them will answer not. But they will not pay you a fraction of cent to liberate them because a) they don't actually suffer from regime in most of the world (with very rare exceptions), they suffer from completely different things; and b) you can't give to those who actually suffer from regime any freedom anyway, my libertarian friend. WHAHAHA!!!

If they have a master they suffer. If they pay taxes they suffer. Getting used to the suffering seems to help some get by and these are the people you are describing.

So you're saying mental illness prevents people from fighting for their freedom. I agree. They are mentally ill and accept slavery because of their masters programming. However it is curable.

I'm not a Libertarian. I just don't see the need for a master and I can't ignore your or anyone else's master's atrocities and I can't live my life pretending it's legitimate or needed just to get by like others living with their programmed mental illness that allows them to not only accept their slavery but stand up for and promote it as you and millions of other sheep do publicly.

Embrace teh tyranny! Slavery is much easier! Consume! Obey! Conform! =/

Offline yvv

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@luckybit Agree with financial independence argument. Those monopolies play bad jokes with people. I will not name them here because they are well known assholes.

Offline luckybit

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I'm with BM on this one. Privacy is absolutely essential to exchange function...

I agree.
We had privacy in bitshares 0.x

So why did it get taken away and then sold back to us for $45k?

good question...I'd imagine there are reasons though... i'm guessing due to the requirement that developers eat and its technically more challenging and time consuming than was thought previously...  BM?

Bitshares 0.9x was not private. I can confirm that there were ways to track people. I don't know the details of stealth blind transfers but I would say they aren't going to be totally private either. It's all about costs, and the security comes from the expense it would take to invade privacy. If your computer for example gets rooted then it's not going to matter if you use anonymous transactions.

What they do is raise the expenses in violating the privacy of the participants who use it. This is why I would say if you use it, use it properly, or don't use it. Also know the risks before you use the feature.

For most people, anonymous transactions will not be useful. For the diehard protesters and activists these features will be useful. I also agree $45,000 for this kind of feature is very expensive, I looked at the javascript, while I don't know fully how it works, it doesn't look like it's $45,000 to implement but who knows? Maybe it has to be tested quite a bit?

In general, at this point in time $45,000 is probably more than people have to spend with prices this low and other higher priorities like Margin Trading and Fees. If the community can summon $45,000 then that would show there is a group of diehard activists demanding this feature. I think due to the controversy it should be done via a crowdsale and funded by a UIA.

I also like the idea @donkeypong or was it @Anders who put forth that NRS should get the feature. If it's funded by crowdsale UIA then Bytemaster could develop the feature for multiple blockchains and receive funding from multiple communities. That would get it implemented a bit faster and get more of the code out there.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 01:28:03 am by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

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Most of people in the world are not bothered by governments

Where is this imaginary land? I want to move there! 

The fact that they can't or choose not to see the tyranny does not mean it doesn't exist. They WILL see it and experience it sooner or later ... probably sooner.

Oh year if you ask 1000 people on the street if they like their government or not, 900 of them will answer not. But they will not pay you a fraction of cent to liberate them because a) they don't actually suffer from regime in most of the world (with very rare exceptions), they suffer from completely different things; and b) you can't give to those who actually suffer from regime any freedom anyway, my libertarian friend. WHAHAHA!!!

@yvv  On some level I agree with you which is why I said what I said. On the other hand financial independence is politically neutral as a term which is why it's the only phrase I use.

The libertarian stuff is why Bytemaster is here. Financial independence is why anyone would be here whether they love or hate government, libertarian or not. The concept we should promote in my opinion is to help people to become more resilient, to help people to reduce their dependency on governments and large corporations, to allow people to work directly for the blockchain, to allow people to be left alone.

I think most people don't have an agenda except to live and peace and be left alone. People pay taxes so the IRS will leave them alone. People pay the warlord mafia kingpin so they'll be left alone. People follow the laws so they'll be left alone. People want to be left alone.

People also want to be able to survive without having to depend on government handouts, and without having to depend on an employer. Can Bitshares make all of these practical desires possible? If the answer is yes then you can build an ecosystem around financial independence alone, without the need for any other concept.

If you ask a person if they like the government many of them do because they require the government services to live. It's like asking an infant if they like their parents when their parents give them food and shelter. If you ask a person if they like their boss, they'll have to say they do or they might get fired from their job and not be able to pay their rent.

So at the core of all dependency issues is the fact that most people are financially dependent on others, often the whims of politicians, or a boss who lives overseas who is the person who owns the company. Most people never have the financial independence to own companies of their own, or to be their own boss, or to even hope to experience what freedom is like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_independence
Quote

It does not matter how old or young someone is or how much money they have or make. If they can generate enough money to meet their needs from sources other than their primary occupation, then they have achieved financial independence. Age is potentially irrelevant with respect to financial independence. If they are 25 years old and their expenses are only $100 per month and they have assets that generate $101 or more per month, they have achieved financial independence, and they are now free to do things that they enjoy without having to worry as much. If, on the other hand, they are 50 years old and earn a million dollars a month but still have expenses above a million dollars a month, then they are not financially independent because they still have to generate the difference each month just to stay even. However, this needs to take into consideration the effects of inflation. If a person needs $100/month for living expenses today, that figure will be $105/month next year and $110.25/month in the following year to support the same lifestyle assuming a 5% annual inflation rate. Therefore, if the person in the above example obtains their passive income from a perpetuity, there will be a time when they lose their financial independence because of inflation.
https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/3dm8yc/meta_read_this_before_posting/

I think Bitshares should simply promote financial independence. Bytemaster can have his grand ideology, his philosophy, and it's all respectable, but we should not expect a majority of people to understand any of it. Most people don't have degrees in political philosophy, and don't know or have faith in any of that. People simply want the American dream which in my opinion Bitshares and the concept of the DAC are in a position to completely re-imagine.

Present a new dream, which invites everyone regardless of ideology or politics, to interact with the blockchain, to live a better and safer life. Protesters aren't always after a better or safer life. Protesters are looking to sacrifice for others, to go to prison for their beliefs when necessary, to in some cases die for their beliefs, but we shouldn't expect that all Bitshares users are going to be protesters, nor should the function of Bitshares be for protest.

Bitshares should be a decentralized exchange and nothing else. Apps built around it can be for protesting, or apps UIAs can be protest UIAs, but I don't think the entire Bitshares should get caught up in that and lose focus on financial independence which is a mainstream dream.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 01:37:46 am by luckybit »
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Offline Myshadow

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I'm with BM on this one. Privacy is absolutely essential to exchange function...

I agree.
We had privacy in bitshares 0.x

So why did it get taken away and then sold back to us for $45k?

good question...I'd imagine there are reasons though... i'm guessing due to the requirement that developers eat and its technically more challenging and time consuming than was thought previously...  BM?

Offline Ander

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I'm with BM on this one. Privacy is absolutely essential to exchange function...

I agree.
We had privacy in bitshares 0.x

So why did it get taken away and then sold back to us for $45k? 
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Offline Myshadow

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I'm with BM on this one. Privacy is absolutely essential to exchange function... how on earth do you expect businesses and people with any amount of money to use any blockchain services if they're unable to keep their finances private... I'm somewhat concerned that most of you haven't realized that's one of the major differences between a completely public blockchain like we have now and the exchanges we're competing against... Get the basic building blocks in place first and then focus on the growth and acquisition of users/businesses.

Offline yvv

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Most of people in the world are not bothered by governments

Where is this imaginary land? I want to move there! 

The fact that they can't or choose not to see the tyranny does not mean it doesn't exist. They WILL see it and experience it sooner or later ... probably sooner.

Oh year if you ask 1000 people on the street if they like their government or not, 900 of them will answer not. But they will not pay you a fraction of cent to liberate them because a) they don't actually suffer from regime in most of the world (with very rare exceptions), they suffer from completely different things; and b) you can't give to those who actually suffer from regime any freedom anyway, my libertarian friend. WHAHAHA!!!

Tuck Fheman

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Most of people in the world are not bothered by governments

Where is this imaginary land? I want to move there! 

The fact that they can't or choose not to see the tyranny does not mean it doesn't exist. They WILL see it and experience it sooner or later ... probably sooner.

Offline Akado

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OMG, what the crap did I just read? Most of people in the world are not bothered by governments and are not sick with any libertarian dreams. Most of people think about much simpler things like what will I eat tomorrow or how will I raise my kids. This is the reason why NASDAQ and Forex exist. People consume huge amount of stuff every day, many of which is produced over seas. NASDAQ and Forex help them to satisfy their needs, being the link between producers and consumers. They offer end solution. None of crypto projects can take their place, because all of them are made by libertarian dreamers, who don't understand how thing which they buy every day, appear in their supermarkets. Crypto is useless even for such simple things like cross border money transfer for remittance or online shopping purpose. Just a cool toy with farts and whistles, attracting curious tech geeks, who do not mind to lose money gambling against each other. I am following this blockchain tech for about three years, and hoping that at least one project will come out which is attached to real world economy. After reading crap about opposing the regime as a locomotive of progress, I am losing my hope.

Did you even bother reading the rest?

The purpose of this post wasn't to change any short-term direction. It was to simply recognize that optimizing the exchange business is a short-term strategy for a larger long-term goal.

....
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Offline Ander

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The NSR buyback purchase just went through.  It was so beautiful.

Bitshares devs, given that NSR is spending $10k a week now buying back NSR, maybe you can get them to give you $45k to implement stealth transfers in NSR?
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Offline yvv

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OMG, what the crap did I just read? Most of people in the world are not bothered by governments and are not sick with any libertarian dreams. Most of people think about much simpler things like what will I eat tomorrow or how will I raise my kids. This is the reason why NASDAQ and Forex exist. People consume huge amount of stuff every day, many of which is produced over seas. NASDAQ and Forex help them to satisfy their needs, being the link between producers and consumers. They offer end solution. None of crypto projects can take their place, because all of them are made by libertarian dreamers, who don't understand how thing which they buy every day, appear in their supermarkets. Crypto is useless even for such simple things like cross border money transfer for remittance or online shopping purpose. Just a cool toy with farts and whistles, attracting curious tech geeks, who do not mind to lose money gambling against each other. I am following this blockchain tech for about three years, and hoping that at least one project will come out which is attached to real world economy. After reading crap about opposing the regime as a locomotive of progress, I am losing my hope.   
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 12:40:15 am by yvv »