Author Topic: My failed attempt at trying to explain BitShares and OL to C-CEX. Help needed.  (Read 23578 times)

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Offline Musewhale

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Offline cass

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all we need are 2-3 simple one pagers.

ok so i would able to help here, if my worker proposal would be approved.


How about cass's worker proposal, and why?

still thinking about this. my main concern is that we should concentrate on core functionality for now.

workers could hire cass on a "per job" basis and add x amount to their worker proposal to pay him

As freelancer --> contract and project based
The other way around .. (paid half upfront - and half after delivering):

Hourly rates without a worker are  $70/h

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Offline fav

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all we need are 2-3 simple one pagers.

one aimed to exchanges, one aimed to users, one aimed to merchants.

and make them ref variable means the referral links in the sites change according to the ?ref

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Great effort @Akado!

I think we should consider this a small piece of some market research.. I think you would have gotten a lot further if you would have started from that point.. market research that is.

You went in there guns blazing without knowing what you were shooting for. :) This happens in sales all the time and why you in this instance and many fail to close. Without understanding your customers pains and what they are looking to gain, you can never hope to sell them what you are offering unless you happen to hit it by luck. Bitshares has got a bunch of feature sets, but without a clear understanding of the exchanges problems, what they like to see solved, and the things they will gain as an exchange, it will fall on def ears. So I am not surprised by his responses.

When you go into conversations like that you got to think about who you are talking to is thinking at ALL times.. WIIFM (Whats in it for me). So when he asked you what is bitshares, a more targeted answer might have been "its a platform that will help you secure your exchange and save you money".  Everything else doesn't matter.. no matter how awesome YOU think it is.. all that matters in that moment is how awesome HE thinks something about Bitshares is for his business that increases his profitability.

Getting him wrapped up in technical elements even more now is NOT the answer. He still doesn't know why he should even be thinking about that. You still got no idea what he needs either. You could have gotten a lot of these answers if you took more interest in his business instead of selling Bitshares.

People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

I don't know if he knows you care about his business yet... if you have some way to get that across by perhaps asking him about his business and being genuine in your concern to see it improve and grow, he would be more eager to listen to what you have to say. Otherwise you become what you mentioned fearing.. another coin trying to sell him on get on their exchange. :)

I don't know if any research has been done on the topic of crypto exchanges operations.. some people have mentioned in this thread some of the issues.. but to really know whats going on and what challenges they would like to solve and other things they like to gain in the crypto exchange business some market research should be done or found on the matter. Then you take that and see how Bitshares may or may not solve those things and put it all together into something that is easy to digest for exchanges. This would be a VERY targeted information piece for that particular market. They will love it.

Why hasn't that been done yet? Because nobody has really tried yet like you have. :) .. it's not up to devs to sell it or come up with multiple marketing materials for every market.. it's up to anybody who would like to like you did today. I am only pointing out what went wrong so that you can go at it again more prepared and with more odds of success. Considering we are still pending API development to improve our feature sets as an exchange platform similar to central exchanges, I think it is a bit premature to be talking migration with them.

Nonetheless.. I think its always good to develop relationships and learn more about the marketplace so that you can better serve them. I would recommend taking a step back and focusing on that first.. then regroup and approach them again this time with focus on what matters to them.

Again.. great initiative and effort. I hope you keep at it and create what might be the repo data for what exchanges need to get onboard and why they should.
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Offline xeroc

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@akando: you did very well. Couldnt have done any better.

Looking at that dialog, we can be proud to have ccedk on board! +5%

I made the business opportunities for the xchange business clear in the whitepaper, but agree that we should clarify it more in the docs ..

Offline wallace

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the token and trading information database is mainteined by bitshares network based blockchain. this is a cost saving for the decentralize exchanges.

but it seems they care more about the alt coins wallets mainteins, actually no one can help them about this.
give me money, I will do...

Offline Akado

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[21:56:11] C-CEX.com: then what's the difference?
[21:56:18] C-CEX.com: Deposit on me, trade on me, withdraw on me...
OK, let me try to answer.

(better a table here)

deposit --- user send coins/fiat to exchange's address/bank account, exchange save info in database --- user send coins/fiat to bridge's address/bank account, bridge issue/send IOU to user on BitShares blockchain
withdraw --- user request withdraw, exchange send coins/fiat to user's address/bank account, save info in database --- user send IOU back to bridge on BitShares blockchain, bridge send coins/fiat to user's address/bank account

I think his point was since you still need to access your cold/hot wallet while using the bridge, that it's still vulnerable and from his pov that didn't make sense.

Still, if you ever want to move coins, you need to access your wallet. I think that logical is flawed because of it. One way or another, you have to do it. The database is simply held on the blockchain instead and I believe a service that cares about it's costumers would prefer this since it's the safest way to keep costumers safe. And I could have insisted on that a little bit more.

Hope someone is ready for round 2 and can share that with him.
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Offline abit

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[21:56:11] C-CEX.com: then what's the difference?
[21:56:18] C-CEX.com: Deposit on me, trade on me, withdraw on me...
OK, let me try to answer.

(better a table here)
Operations --- how traditional exchanges work  --- how BitShares works
user registration --- save user info in database  --- save user info on BitShares blockchain
user login --- user communicates with exchange's server --- user communicates with any online wallet provider (official name?), or websocket service provider  (need a official name here) with a light wallet/mobile wallet
user identification -- user is mostly identified by password/2FA, rarely by public/private key pair (this needs to be confirmed), exchange's server is responsible for identification --- user is identified by public/private key pair, all full nodes of BitShares blockchain are responsible for identification when needed
deposit --- user send coins/fiat to exchange's address/bank account, exchange save info in database --- user send coins/fiat to bridge's address/bank account, bridge issue/send IOU to user on BitShares blockchain
withdraw --- user request withdraw, exchange send coins/fiat to user's address/bank account, save info in database --- user send IOU back to bridge on BitShares blockchain, bridge send coins/fiat to user's address/bank account
trade (submit/cancel order) --- user request, exchange save order info to database/memory --- user request, BitShares save order info on blockchain
trade (show order book) --- fetch data from database/memory --- fetch data from blockchain
trade (match order) --- matching is done by exchange's order matching engine, if able to match, save changes of user balance info / order info / trading history to database --- matching is done by BitShares market engine which is running on blockchain, if able to match, save changes of account balance / order info / order history to blockchain (every full node will check the result)
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Offline Akado

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Good job @Akado !

Quote
[21:54:05] C-CEX.com: I don't want to send users elsewhere
Hard to answer this question indeed.
It seems that our first mover, CCEDK, still hasn't migrate their user database into OpenLedger yet. Without this, I don't know how to efficiently use the market engine of BitShares platform. Proxy the user's bid/ask requests to BitShares? Map BitShares's order book and/or trade history to their website? How to handle the fees involved? In the end, is OpenLedger actually independent from CCEDK?

//Edit:
Since they don't even know Bitshares, maybe the first step should be tell them BitShares is on top 10 of CoinMarketCap.com, and ask them to list bts on their own exchange.

Thanks! Well yeah but my first thought was that they could be playing silly just to know with what type of people they were dealing with and if they in fact didn't know, I didn't want to sound like those people always begging for a coin to be added. I just wanted them to know about the technology. Still, I realize it's too early now.

I always thought that our blockchain would be the backend of the exchange site.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 12:30:17 am by Akado »
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Offline abit

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Good job @Akado !

Quote
[21:54:05] C-CEX.com: I don't want to send users elsewhere
Hard to answer this question indeed.
It seems that our first mover, CCEDK, still hasn't migrate their user database into OpenLedger yet. Without this, I don't know how to efficiently use the market engine of BitShares platform. Proxy the user's bid/ask requests to BitShares? Map BitShares's order book and/or trade history to their website? How to handle the fees involved? In the end, is OpenLedger actually independent from CCEDK?

//Edit:
Since they don't even know Bitshares, maybe the first step should be tell them BitShares is on top 10 of CoinMarketCap.com, and ask them to list bts on their own exchange.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 12:18:03 am by abit »
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Offline Akado

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Me too I couldn't explain it to someone running an exchange because I have never tried to fully understand what someone running an exchange is doing technically in depth.

The point with the wallet server is a good example. Next time one could try to explain step by step how they would operate their wallet servers differently.
Taken Open-Ledger and OPEN.BTC I would assume they own a BTC-adress which holds the exact number of OPEN.BTC, shoudn't they?

So while am at it: When I look at the open-ledger Site I don't see a link to this said BTC-Account in some BTC-Block explorer and the possibility to request a signed message as proof.
Shouldn't for the sake of transparency that is always mentioned be an easy way for me as a potential user of Openledger to verify that those BTC really are "there" and not just at the moment where my OPEN.BTC leave some gateway into my BTC-Wallet-address?

OK, Asset-Explorer Shows, that 70 OPEN.BTC are in existence. Will ask ronny for the address, maybe I'm missing something.
However this whole thing should be made clear and easy to understand. I'm a regular lurker since 2013 and consider myself not as dumb as my nick suggests  :o

You're right, it should, but since 2.0 is relatively young, that's because we're lacking this info. Maybe it's still too early to bring in exchanges. We're lacking proper documentation yet. Not enough support for those who might be interested and that can consequently take too much of CNX time (atm I doubt anyone else knows how to do it)
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Offline mudshark79

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Me too I couldn't explain it to someone running an exchange because I have never tried to fully understand what someone running an exchange is doing technically in depth.

The point with the wallet server is a good example. Next time one could try to explain step by step how they would operate their wallet servers differently.
Taken Open-Ledger and OPEN.BTC I would assume they own a BTC-adress which holds the exact number of OPEN.BTC, shoudn't they?

So while am at it: When I look at the open-ledger Site I don't see a link to this said BTC-Account in some BTC-Block explorer and the possibility to request a signed message as proof.
Shouldn't for the sake of transparency that is always mentioned be an easy way for me as a potential user of Openledger to verify that those BTC really are "there" and not just at the moment where my OPEN.BTC leave some gateway into my BTC-Wallet-address?

OK, Asset-Explorer Shows, that 70 OPEN.BTC are in existence. Will ask ronny for the address, maybe I'm missing something.
However this whole thing should be made clear and easy to understand. I'm a regular lurker since 2013 and consider myself not as dumb as my nick suggests  :o
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 11:49:35 pm by mudshark79 »

Offline Akado

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Me too I couldn't explain it to someone running an exchange because I have never tried to fully understand what someone running an exchange is doing technically in depth.

The point with the wallet server is a good example. Next time one could try to explain step by step how they would operate their wallet servers differently.
Taken Open-Ledger and OPEN.BTC I would assume they own a BTC-adress which holds the exact number of OPEN.BTC, shoudn't they?

So while am at it: When I look at the open-ledger Site I don't see a link to this said BTC-Account in some BTC-Block explorer and the possibility to request a signed message as proof.
Shouldn't for the sake of transparency that is always mentioned be an easy way for me as a potential user of Openledger to verify that those BTC really are "there" and not just at the moment where my OPEN.BTC leave some gateway into my BTC-Wallet-address?

I agree.

Only now I realize we might not have yet fully grasped how to migrate an exchange to BitShares. Either that or it just isn't well defined how.

I think this would be worth a worker proposal and should be included on documentation @xeroc a document explaining how this should be done so it's easier for any exchange to do it and what are the benefits of doing so, how do the exchanges profit from this. @ccedk or maybe this should be for OpenLedger, I dunno, whoever is up to the task.

But this should definitely be included in the documentation. It might be hard to do but it's a must if we want exchanges to join. In short:

1. Step by Step Tutorial
2. Why
3. Benefits
4. How do they profit
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Offline mudshark79

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Me too I couldn't explain it to someone running an exchange because I have never tried to fully understand what someone running an exchange is doing technically in depth.

The point with the wallet server is a good example. Next time one could try to explain step by step how they would operate their wallet servers differently.
Taken Open-Ledger and OPEN.BTC I would assume they own a BTC-adress which holds the exact number of OPEN.BTC, shoudn't they?

So while am at it: When I look at the open-ledger Site I don't see a link to this said BTC-Account in some BTC-Block explorer and the possibility to request a signed message as proof.
Shouldn't for the sake of transparency that is always mentioned be an easy way for me as a potential user of Openledger to verify that those BTC really are "there" and not just at the moment where my OPEN.BTC leave some gateway into my BTC-Wallet-address?


Offline bitacer

Dont they claim to be a crypto exchange , he  did not even know what bitshares is, I will make fun of him.