Pause the discussion about fees. Discuss the fee pool usage and liquidity

[puppies]

We are discussing it and fees.  Personally I would like to have more discussion about selling the assets and less about fees, but you don't always get what you want.  I just woke up, and have not read through the committee telegram chat yet.  Hopefully there is enough of a consensus that we can start the process today.

[Akado]

So the idea is sell the assets and return the earned BTS to the fee pool? Seems simple. It's just a matter of deciding if the committee account @puppies created should be used for that and at what price should the assets be sold.

Is the committee discussing this or are they lost in this endless loop of discussing about fees?

[JonnyB]

Smartcoin trade/transfer fees are profits for the reserve pool.
Any trade fees collected in smartcoin are also profits for the reserve pool.
This is why all the smartcoin fees held by the committee must be converted to BTS and returned to the reserve pool.
The only other legitimate use of these would be to keep the fee pool topped up.

I hope the committee is Unanimous on this and the only decision left is how to sell these smartcoins before returning them to the reserve pool.
We have been discussing this on page 57 of the stupid questions thread.

[xeroc]

for the OP ..

instead of tweaking here and there, the committee should start figuring out the greater picture of the fees.

How to do that?
a) Take this file:
https://github.com/BitShares-Committee/Instructions/blob/master/usd-denominated-fees/config-example.py
b) Fill in the USD-denominated fees
c) add some discussion, argumentation, reasons for your choice
d) open up a discussion from there and improve over it given others CONSTRUCTIVE(!!) critisism

[Shentist]

that CNY in dollars seems to be around $1190. Giving a total of $8100.

I really never thought about the BS the committee would get after selling the assets honestly.. I thought they would be burnt. But I guess no point in doing that since sooner or later they would created again for a worker proposal...

So what do we have left?
- save it for a worker proposal? This could be used to pay abit's proposal of percentage based fees I guess. The only thing I dont like about this is people might think we have 8k worth of free worker labour and might spend it on useless stuff
- use it for liquidity.

Would it be very risky to have the committee handle that account via multi sig and use it to place buy and sell orders like a market maker? I guess that would make the problem bhuz mentioned even harder..

I think that's really the problem. Selling them is easy, but what to do with the BTS from the sale? Use them as collateral to create more bitBTC and bitUSD? That would only create one half or one third, around $2 to $3k I guess. And then sell them on the market again? And so on till there are no BTS left?

they would just circulating and maybe it will provide gaining funds or loosing some, but we would got a new market parcipiant right now.

[Akado]

that CNY in dollars seems to be around $1190. Giving a total of $8100.

I really never thought about the BS the committee would get after selling the assets honestly.. I thought they would be burnt. But I guess no point in doing that since sooner or later they would created again for a worker proposal...

So what do we have left?
- save it for a worker proposal? This could be used to pay abit's proposal of percentage based fees I guess. The only thing I dont like about this is people might think we have 8k worth of free worker labour and might spend it on useless stuff
- use it for liquidity.

Would it be very risky to have the committee handle that account via multi sig and use it to place buy and sell orders like a market maker? I guess that would make the problem bhuz mentioned even harder..

I think that's really the problem. Selling them is easy, but what to do with the BTS from the sale? Use them as collateral to create more bitBTC and bitUSD? That would only create one half or one third, around $2 to $3k I guess. And then sell them on the market again? And so on till there are no BTS left?

[Shentist]

USD   6,910
EUR   10.24
GOLD   0.00381
SILVER   3.09
CNY   7,870
BTC   0.476

ah, ok. as long as we are not creating new stuff we could use this funds.

[puppies]

USD   6,910
EUR   10.24
GOLD   0.00381
SILVER   3.09
CNY   7,870
BTC   0.476

[Bhuz]

i don't get where are these BTS are coming from?

It is the fees collected by the fee pool that we have withdrawn from the committee owned assets.  We do not currently have BTS.  We have bitassets.  Once we sell these bitassets and have BTS then we will need to decide what to do with that BTS.

you mean these 9.000 BTS ? http://cryptofresh.com/reserve holy crap! i see a huge liquidity wave coming

Nope.

Here: http://cryptofresh.com/u/committee-account
Look the balance for: USD, EUR, GOLD, SILVER, CNY, BTC

[Shentist]

i don't get where are these BTS are coming from?

It is the fees collected by the fee pool that we have withdrawn from the committee owned assets.  We do not currently have BTS.  We have bitassets.  Once we sell these bitassets and have BTS then we will need to decide what to do with that BTS.

you mean these 9.000 BTS ? http://cryptofresh.com/reserve holy crap! i see a huge liquidity wave coming

[puppies]

i don't get where are these BTS are coming from?

It is the fees collected by the fee pool that we have withdrawn from the committee owned assets.  We do not currently have BTS.  We have bitassets.  Once we sell these bitassets and have BTS then we will need to decide what to do with that BTS.

[puppies]

Its difficult to get anything done in the committee.  I also thought we had decided on a course of action, but some committee members that had not been a part of the original discussion did not seem to have the same opinion.  I have also been pretty busy with work and life and could not drive it as hard as I was.  I was hoping that creating http://cryptofresh.com/u/committee-trade would lead to more discussion than it has, but sadly it hasn't.  I will open some polls to see if I can get clear community support for the different steps needed to move this forward.

[jakub]

I also fully agree with Akado.

He is right: first we need to deal with liquidity and this needs to be boot-strapped:
- by the committee (as they have funds at their disposal)
- by trading bots (motivated by opportunity to make profit)
- by entrepreneurs (motivated by financial incentives - once we have MAKER in place)

Continuously discussing the transfer fees, when there is no liquidity, is a waste of time.
Transfer fees affect ordinary users and most probably these users do not make many transfers because there is no liquidity, not because transfer fess are too high.

[Shentist]

i don't get where are these BTS are coming from?

[Akado]

Yes I fully agree with what Akado is saying.
A first step would be to sell the fee pool reserves in to the markets at feed +10%

Could the committee please inform us of what it has planned to increase liquidity in the near term?

I think people are letting all this decisions in the committee hands but this is something all of us should be working on/discussing. They have the power to do stuff but shareholders decide on what's best and also have  saying. I think people are forgetting that and think that the committee can or should handle these decisions all by itself and discuss stuff in private, etc. While some discussions should be of that type I think everyone should care about this.

This is important. Let's push this through. Even if we don't have a long term plan, if fees were collected we have the option to risk and sell them on the market at +10% premium or wait till we have a better plan and accumulate more fees.

How long would it take to accumulate the same amount of fees? Roughly the same time? How much is it in USD at current bts prices?

Should we wait or take this chance that we might not have again?

Any ideas for a long term plan? Maybe it's me that can't come up with anything but I really see no problem with doing this right now.

What if we did this every quarter? That would be nice and everyone would know at that time there would be an "injection" in the system to try make it healthier, would this be a good idea?

So this quarter we have this X amount of fees sold on the market. Next quarter we do the same, etc. If we manage to do this a whole year and increase the volume which consequently will increase the fee pool next time, we really could snowball this, little by little!

Q1 - $10k bitUSD sold at 10% premium only
Q2 - $?? bitUSD sold at ??% premium
Q3, Q4, etc

Of course with bitCNY and bitBTC too this is just an example. We would have this injection every quarter to stabilize things till we get things rolling. Then in the future if it isn't needed we could use it for other stuff but for now it would be nice to do this. Seems like a good idea and would give many people an opportunity every quarter.

@Bhuz
thanks for sharing that I completely forgot. Well, I guess that's the committee's job to organize itself to make these decisions. Organize it, do it with a smaller expiration rate to avoid anyone from manipulating the price and you end up doing that mistake.

Otherwise nothing will ever get done because of that, which doesn't make any sense. It's just a mater of organization. I'm sure if everyone really commits to do it, we can find a solution and the committee can organize itself and pull this off. If it doesn't take action then this is just useless and nothing will ever get done.

If we don't discuss and act, then nothing will get done, that's 100% sure.