Author Topic: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.  (Read 7384 times)

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Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2016, 10:08:58 am »
if we can attract more users and businesses with 0.5 BTS fee with 0 costs, compared to conditional 0 BTS fee with 50k USD cost, we'd better to choose the first option now. 

I agree 0.5 BTS achieves pretty much the same results for 0 costs for the time being.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 10:19:10 am by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline xeroc

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Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2016, 10:26:03 am »
if we can attract more users and businesses with 0.5 BTS fee with 0 costs, compared to conditional 0 BTS fee with 50k USD cost, we'd better to choose the first option now. 

I agree 0.5 BTS achieves pretty much the same results for 0 costs for the time being.
Except for the marketing buzz yu could create with 0 fee. But considering how we suck at marketing you may be right
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Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2016, 10:44:10 am »
if we can attract more users and businesses with 0.5 BTS fee with 0 costs, compared to conditional 0 BTS fee with 50k USD cost, we'd better to choose the first option now. 

I agree 0.5 BTS achieves pretty much the same results for 0 costs for the time being.
Except for the marketing buzz yu could create with 0 fee. But considering how we suck at marketing you may be right

True, I agree there is a marketing benefit to 'zero fees' but for the time and cost, I don't think right now, it's worth it vs. $0.002 fees.

Atm I would personally support

1. Dilution for BitAsset yield as it's fairly cost neutral (Creates millions of BitUSD with thousands of holders, removes BTS from exchanges)

2. Dilution for BitAsset liquidity but cost/benefit has to be right. (NuBits seems to maintain their liquidity operations very cheaply https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21547.msg281032.html#msg281032  vs. $1000 a day proposed in current liquidity proposal. )

3. BitUSD Dice. I've noticed more Chinese support for this provided it can potentially be removed at a later stage. (That should be fairly low cost to develop and bring in profit from day 1. Hopefully someone will offer to develop it via Stealth.)   
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Offline fav

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Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2016, 11:01:10 am »
I think you guys overestimate the marketing buzz of "0 fees" by a margin of 1000. it's not a big deal in my opinion, or did you ever hear from whatever was that 0 tx fee coin called?

Offline merockstar

Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2016, 01:39:11 pm »
I'm not anti-dilution, but I am anti-dilution for now.

Akado, you said that if we don't dilute then the only way the price goes up is as the result of a pump.

Based on what I recall about Bitcoin's growth, the only time a new higher bottom was ever established was in the aftermath of a giant pump. Bitcoin only starting hanging consistently above 255 after the pump above a thousand dollars, for the most recent example.

I believe giant pumps are good. They bring more attention to the coin and motivate new people to hold in the hopes of moonglory.

Here is what I see happening if we lay off the dilution for a while:

Development may stagnant for a while and be limited to what people are willing to contribute voluntarily. The project doesn't die. We employ patience. During this time speculators become more confident that they won't be buying into just an ATM for the devs (and their sponsors). Given enough time, there will be a new pump or two, which will leave the price a little higher than it had previously been.

Rinse and repeat this process a few times, then all of a sudden we're in a position to fund a new feature without shooting ourselves in the foot in the process.

Yes, Bitcoin, my example above, does dilute, but this is different because that's not what's funding development. Miners are in more of a position to hold until the price goes up and sell at a time when it's more appropriate and healthy for the market. Let's dilute for new features at times when it's appropriate and healthy for the market, not at times when it will drive the price into the toilet.

Obviously I can't speak for the chinese, but this is my logic as a temporary anti-diluter.

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2016, 02:22:30 pm »

Development may stagnant for a while and be limited to what people are willing to contribute voluntarily. The project doesn't die. We employ patience. During this time speculators become more confident that they won't be buying into just an ATM for the devs (and their sponsors). Given enough time, there will be a new pump or two, which will leave the price a little higher than it had previously been.

Rinse and repeat this process a few times, then all of a sudden we're in a position to fund a new feature without shooting ourselves in the foot in the process.

Yes, Bitcoin, my example above, does dilute, but this is different because that's not what's funding development. Miners are in more of a position to hold until the price goes up and sell at a time when it's more appropriate and healthy for the market. Let's dilute for new features at times when it's appropriate and healthy for the market, not at times when it will drive the price into the toilet.

Obviously I can't speak for the chinese, but this is my logic as a temporary anti-diluter.

So the expectation is that there is going to be a sudden rush of volunteer developers that are going to appear out of nowhere. Where are those volunteer developers now? If there were these volunteer contributors, don't you think we would not have any workers voted for now, because they rolls are already being fulfilled by these volunteers?

What is the PLAN to have these volunteers do programming that they are paid to do at a rate of $150 per/hr or more at other places? Why would they look at CMC and say: 'gee, I think I am going to ignore Ethereum and all these other alts and focus on this random Bitshares place down in the lower Top 10 area.' ?

This sort of denotes the whole problem with the position of anti-dilution.. there is no clear plan for growth... it seems entirely predicated on this crypto-currency 1.0 'we're a coin' type thinking that says if we have no spending of any kind, then value should increase.. and everything is sunshine lollipops and rainbows everyday then.

If you think leaving it to chance is really a competitive advantage over other networks that are well funded to the tune of millions to further develop their core platforms.. just who do you think is going to be in the lead of that race over time?
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Offline Thom

Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2016, 05:38:12 pm »

I am I big fan of delusion.... I think BM even has a post or something about that - "how to distribute delusion"..."benefits of delusion" or something...

No delusion , no fun!
anyway  +5%

PS
I might have been slightly drunk posting this....

You mean "Delusional" ? (i.e. not deluTional", as in: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusional?s=t) For once I think I might agree with you Tony!  :)
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Offline xeroc

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Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2016, 07:58:00 pm »
I'm not anti-dilution, but I am anti-dilution for now.

Akado, you said that if we don't dilute then the only way the price goes up is as the result of a pump.

Based on what I recall about Bitcoin's growth, the only time a new higher bottom was ever established was in the aftermath of a giant pump. Bitcoin only starting hanging consistently above 255 after the pump above a thousand dollars, for the most recent example.

I believe giant pumps are good. They bring more attention to the coin and motivate new people to hold in the hopes of moonglory.

Here is what I see happening if we lay off the dilution for a while:

Development may stagnant for a while and be limited to what people are willing to contribute voluntarily. The project doesn't die. We employ patience. During this time speculators become more confident that they won't be buying into just an ATM for the devs (and their sponsors). Given enough time, there will be a new pump or two, which will leave the price a little higher than it had previously been.

Rinse and repeat this process a few times, then all of a sudden we're in a position to fund a new feature without shooting ourselves in the foot in the process.

Yes, Bitcoin, my example above, does dilute, but this is different because that's not what's funding development. Miners are in more of a position to hold until the price goes up and sell at a time when it's more appropriate and healthy for the market. Let's dilute for new features at times when it's appropriate and healthy for the market, not at times when it will drive the price into the toilet.

Obviously I can't speak for the chinese, but this is my logic as a temporary anti-diluter.
I kind of understand this reasoning. So, when would we STOP voting down workers? At 20m cap? Or at 100m? Independent of HOW this is achieved. There should be a clear message as to when shareholders accept a 'dilution' (as in spending company funds)

@alt: since you are the major nay-sayer currently, I would like to get a clearer picture here.
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Offline merockstar

Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2016, 09:48:42 pm »
...

I kind of understand this reasoning. So, when would we STOP voting down workers? At 20m cap? Or at 100m? Independent of HOW this is achieved. There should be a clear message as to when shareholders accept a 'dilution' (as in spending company funds)

[member=4465]alt[/member]: since you are the major nay-sayer currently, I would like to get a clearer picture here.

I'm not sure how to do the math, so I'm not entirely certain on how to give an answer to that question. It should be a point where we can dilute substantially enough to use the funds for something good without having a major overall effect on the price. In my opinion at least.

honestly I'm not sure why I'm objecting so much. cheap bts is cheap bts in the long run.

objection withdrawn.

Offline Akado

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Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2016, 11:40:50 pm »
I'm not anti-dilution, but I am anti-dilution for now.

Akado, you said that if we don't dilute then the only way the price goes up is as the result of a pump.

Based on what I recall about Bitcoin's growth, the only time a new higher bottom was ever established was in the aftermath of a giant pump. Bitcoin only starting hanging consistently above 255 after the pump above a thousand dollars, for the most recent example.

I believe giant pumps are good. They bring more attention to the coin and motivate new people to hold in the hopes of moonglory.

Here is what I see happening if we lay off the dilution for a while:

Development may stagnant for a while and be limited to what people are willing to contribute voluntarily. The project doesn't die. We employ patience. During this time speculators become more confident that they won't be buying into just an ATM for the devs (and their sponsors). Given enough time, there will be a new pump or two, which will leave the price a little higher than it had previously been.

Rinse and repeat this process a few times, then all of a sudden we're in a position to fund a new feature without shooting ourselves in the foot in the process.

Yes, Bitcoin, my example above, does dilute, but this is different because that's not what's funding development. Miners are in more of a position to hold until the price goes up and sell at a time when it's more appropriate and healthy for the market. Let's dilute for new features at times when it's appropriate and healthy for the market, not at times when it will drive the price into the toilet.

Obviously I can't speak for the chinese, but this is my logic as a temporary anti-diluter.

I'm not saying we necessarily need dilution either. I mean, we don't need every single proposal that does something to get approved, they just need to be better managed.

I, however, disagree with your reasoning. What you propose is we bet on:
1. We find people to develop stuff
2. Those people prefer developing for BitShares instead of Ethereum and others
3. Those people - already a niche within a niche - are willing to do that for free
4. If we manage to do that:
4.1 Competition doesn't surpass us
4.2 We get pumped (when we can also get dumped)
4.3 That pump gets us to new higher lows
5. If this wasn't enough, rinse and repeat a few times

Well, that would work... on Bitcoin... in 2009

As for this sentence " Let's dilute for new features at times when it's appropriate and healthy for the market, not at times when it will drive the price into the toilet." I agree. People should take this into consideration.

All in all, I don't agree with this specific reasoning of yours, but overall, I agree in that funds need to be managed correctly. Of course we shouldn't approve every single proposal just because they are creating something that sounds great, but has no utility at all.
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Offline Akado

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Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2016, 10:58:36 am »
I still didn't get a decent reply about what to do. No plan whatsoever. Nice  +5%
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Offline Samupaha

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Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2016, 11:08:09 am »
I still didn't get a decent reply about what to do. No plan whatsoever. Nice  +5%

I think we can now safely ignore the antidilution comments.

Offline cube

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Re: No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2016, 01:41:34 pm »
I still didn't get a decent reply about what to do. No plan whatsoever. Nice  +5%

You probably getting a better response with a translated post to the Chinese board.  Perhaps wildpig can help?
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