Sidechain bitAssets

[abit]

@puppies @kingslanding please check my MUSE side chain idea here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21786.msg283834.html#msg283834. I made some technical analysis there. xeroc and cube have inputs as well.

IMO $200k is only a part of the costs.

[kingslanding]

I think if a formal  proposal that detailed a high-level plan for implementation and breakdown of cost were created, there would be a lot of interest.  Then the final amount, even $200k, would be justified.

If a true 2-way sidechain between real BTC and SIDE.BTC were proposed I would contribute to an FBA.   I know I wouldn't be alone on this.  A large chunk of the community realizes the importance this would bring to bitshares.

[puppies]

$200k. Seems a bit steep.  Is there just way more to designing this system than it seems?  I haven't layered to all of the mumble yet so it may be explained there. 

[openledger]

Thanks for your input. I think first mover advantage would be really worth it in this case. The issue here is if the community has that amount of money right now at their disposal to fund that. And of course, legal concerns that may come from that, like you mentioned.

The hardest questions would be how to raise that money and finding custodians capable of doing the job right I guess. We could also try a mix of worker proposal + FBA

@ccedk you have a lot going on, would this be an extra burden or worth it for you?

I am sorry, dont have enough information to know if this is of interest or not. I suggest a cloer corespondence to discuss further, with whomever is involved.

[Akado]

Thanks for your input. I think first mover advantage would be really worth it in this case. The issue here is if the community has that amount of money right now at their disposal to fund that. And of course, legal concerns that may come from that, like you mentioned.

The hardest questions would be how to raise that money and finding custodians capable of doing the job right I guess. We could also try a mix of worker proposal + FBA

@ccedk you have a lot going on, would this be an extra burden or worth it for you?

[dannotestein]

Didn't you hear the mumble?

Dannostein already has code for another project he could monnetize here, and we could have a multisig sidechain in 3 months effectively allowing bitcoins to trade on our 3 second smartchain, sucking all the bitcoins off the bitcoin blockchain and onto ours and creating perfect pegs in the process.

Total estimated cost:

$200k, a mere $5,000 Ethereum IPO investment (sold today)

We would effectively become bitcoin's "lightning network"

dannotestein previously stated that he is doing an ipo of BlockTrades
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21509.0.html

In that case, if he considers the sidechain project to be feasible and profitable, he will be able to finance it. I guess we could fund raise to loan him the money to get started until his ipo goes through.

@dannotestein could you share your input on this?

I think the the sidechain/mutlis-sig custodians idea is a good one and something that should be done as the amount of outstanding IOUs gets substantial, but it's hard to say if now is the time to do it or not. It doesn't really allow users to do anything they can't already do or make any operation more convenient, it just allows them to trust the network more. So it only make sense now from a public relations perspective (i.e. first sidechain for bitcoin, more trustworthy, etc), and it then becomes a question if that benefit is worth the development cost.

Also, there will be more burden on SIDE.BTC custodians to manage a more complicated piece of software as compared to witnesses. Fortunately, the BTC wallet tends to be pretty stable, but if we did this for Ether as well, they can expect a lot more headaches since we've seen the Ether wallet crash numerous times (it feels a lot like an early BitShares 1.0 wallet).

Since I don't want BlockTrades to take all the risk for this venture, I would prefer if someone like CCEDK pre-sold an FBA, paid us a part in the FBA (to cover our existing costs and lost opportunities associated with open-sourcing that code) and part in proceeds from the FBA to cover our new development expenses. Ideally, BlockTrades could sell the FBA directly, but that would require us to get a special license from Cayman's to sell securities and I haven't investigated how much that would cost yet.

[Samupaha]

This thread is to discuss the possibility of derivative assets such as USD, CNY and GOLD backed by Real BTC, ETH, DOGE, LTC, etc. in a way that is completely decentralized.

How would we go about this?

This has never been done before, as far as I know. It could end up bringing more awareness to our amazing innovation - bitAssets - that IMO has received far too little attention to date.

Are there any other benefits besides awareness? I think that BTS is best asset to back smartcoins. If sidechain-BTC is used, there is no additional benefit, but there is always some risk from reliability of sidechain implementation. BTS doesn't have that kind of risk.

Good question. I'm not sure I agree that BTS is less risky, since failure for both would require some sort of collusion. What's the difference between the committee colluding to influence the bitAsset issuing account vs. colluding to control the BTC multi-sig account? The risk profile seems very similar to me.

Adding the sidechain-multisig adds always one potential point-of-failure. Unless it brings significant benefits, I'm skeptical if it's worth of doing.

Thom, my comment was about smartcoins backed by sideBTC.  That's what the OP was talking about, or at least that's how I understood it. But I do agree that sideBTC itself is worth doing, I just prefer to use it as it is, not as backing currency for derivatives.

[Thom]

This thread is to discuss the possibility of derivative assets such as USD, CNY and GOLD backed by Real BTC, ETH, DOGE, LTC, etc. in a way that is completely decentralized.

How would we go about this?

This has never been done before, as far as I know. It could end up bringing more awareness to our amazing innovation - bitAssets - that IMO has received far too little attention to date.

Are there any other benefits besides awareness? I think that BTS is best asset to back smartcoins. If sidechain-BTC is used, there is no additional benefit, but there is always some risk from reliability of sidechain implementation. BTS doesn't have that kind of risk.

Good question. I'm not sure I agree that BTS is less risky, since failure for both would require some sort of collusion. What's the difference between the committee colluding to influence the bitAsset issuing account vs. colluding to control the BTC multi-sig account? The risk profile seems very similar to me.

I was hoping for some more ideas about this, but so far you are the only person on this thread who has posted about the topic of the op  .

I'll chime in CP. I disagree with Samupaha's risk assessment on the basis of Bitcoin's liquidity. That the BTC collateral is locked up on the Bitcoin blockchain and surfaced as SideBTC (or whatever name) here on the BTS (side)blockchain is a 1:1 relationship which people can easily understand, unlike derivatives like BitUSD. The risk as I see it is in implementing the 2-way multisig contract. You can look at the BTC collateral as an escrow account.

I say 2-way b/c the state of the SideBTC must perfectly correspond to the state of the collateral BTC on the Bitcoin side. The owner of the BTC must be free to transact the SideBTC within the BTS DEX, or use any unused SideBTC as BTC on the Bitcoin side (by unlocking some collateral, reducing the unspent SideBTC on the BTS blockchain). The use case I just described is where a BTC account has a corresponding BTS account. This use case increases our user base and provides exposure of the BTS "Lightning" blockchain to BTC diehards.

Of course more complicated escrow transactions are also possible, such as a BTC account holder wanting to send BTC (as SideBTC) to some other BTS account, or a merchant that accepts SideBTC or a merchant that accepts only BTC but utilizes some gateway / bridge service like MetaExchange, Blocktrades or ShapeShift.

[CryptoPrometheus]

This thread is to discuss the possibility of derivative assets such as USD, CNY and GOLD backed by Real BTC, ETH, DOGE, LTC, etc. in a way that is completely decentralized.

How would we go about this?

This has never been done before, as far as I know. It could end up bringing more awareness to our amazing innovation - bitAssets - that IMO has received far too little attention to date.

Are there any other benefits besides awareness? I think that BTS is best asset to back smartcoins. If sidechain-BTC is used, there is no additional benefit, but there is always some risk from reliability of sidechain implementation. BTS doesn't have that kind of risk.

Good question. I'm not sure I agree that BTS is less risky, since failure for both would require some sort of collusion. What's the difference between the committee colluding to influence the bitAsset issuing account vs. colluding to control the BTC multi-sig account? The risk profile seems very similar to me.

I was hoping for some more ideas about this, but so far you are the only person on this thread who has posted about the topic of the op  .

[Akado]

problem is the costs, I really don't see the community willing to spend 200k on that, given the dilution hate.

2/3 or more would have to be crowdfunded imo.

I will gladly hold a donation drive for such a thing. 

This is how I see it going: We have a thread on bitcointalk asking (for donations in btc) and a thread on bitsharestalk (accepting btc, bts and maybe bitUSD/bitCNY).  Make the bitcoin in our ecosystem a fee backed asset (with a floating fee that is set to always undercut the competition?). 

Then give a cut of those fees to those accounts that donated...kind of like with onceuponatime and stealth.

We could all reach out to the blockstream devs too and give them the bts donated for mike hearn for a hangout to celebrate bitcoins first sidechain. We could promote Beyond Bitcoin and bitshares at the same time...and it would be a huge press release once the entire bitcoin infrastructure starts saying "zomg we need to use the btc service they are running!"
Not to mention the beyond bitcoin logo is meant specifically to make bitshares look like armor around a bitcoin.  Wraps up quite nicely in a little package if you ask me.

I agree if we decide to go forward with this, that we should reach to Blockstream. The question is how would we collect enough funds? People won't donate without receiving anything in return. Do get part of the fees, you're making it so everyone who wants to participate needs a BitShares account, which some might find restricting.

I think it would be a pretty good deal if Blockstream helped and in return takes part of the fees, since they're probably more willing to go long term than most investors/donators and people who hang around in forums, imo, since they're a company with funds already.

Didn't you hear the mumble?

Dannostein already has code for another project he could monnetize here, and we could have a multisig sidechain in 3 months effectively allowing bitcoins to trade on our 3 second smartchain, sucking all the bitcoins off the bitcoin blockchain and onto ours and creating perfect pegs in the process.

Total estimated cost:

$200k, a mere $5,000 Ethereum IPO investment (sold today)

We would effectively become bitcoin's "lightning network"

dannotestein previously stated that he is doing an ipo of BlockTrades
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21509.0.html

In that case, if he considers the sidechain project to be feasible and profitable, he will be able to finance it. I guess we could fund raise to loan him the money to get started until his ipo goes through.

@dannotestein could you share your input on this?

[cube]

Didn't you hear the mumble?

Dannostein already has code for another project he could monnetize here, and we could have a multisig sidechain in 3 months effectively allowing bitcoins to trade on our 3 second smartchain, sucking all the bitcoins off the bitcoin blockchain and onto ours and creating perfect pegs in the process.

Total estimated cost:

$200k, a mere $5,000 Ethereum IPO investment (sold today)

We would effectively become bitcoin's "lightning network"

dannotestein previously stated that he is doing an ipo of BlockTrades
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21509.0.html

In that case, if he considers the sidechain project to be feasible and profitable, he will be able to finance it. I guess we could fund raise to loan him the money to get started until his ipo goes through.

Too bad the ipo isn't open to US residents:
"...please note that this offering is NOT available to US and Cayman Islands citizens and residents."

Is there any indication that he'll even do sidechains anytime soon?  It'd be nice to know the steps he needs to get there besides 3 months and ~$200k.  He may have already too much on his plate or may need more devs.

US residents are restricted from buying that class of shares of blocktrades but it does not stop US residents from *lending* monies to it nor a crowdfund/FBA.  A demo of a possible sidechain builds confidence.

[Samupaha]

This thread is to discuss the possibility of derivative assets such as USD, CNY and GOLD backed by Real BTC, ETH, DOGE, LTC, etc. in a way that is completely decentralized.

How would we go about this?

This has never been done before, as far as I know. It could end up bringing more awareness to our amazing innovation - bitAssets - that IMO has received far too little attention to date.

Are there any other benefits besides awareness? I think that BTS is best asset to back smartcoins. If sidechain-BTC is used, there is no additional benefit, but there is always some risk from reliability of sidechain implementation. BTS doesn't have that kind of risk.

[kingslanding]

Didn't you hear the mumble?

Dannostein already has code for another project he could monnetize here, and we could have a multisig sidechain in 3 months effectively allowing bitcoins to trade on our 3 second smartchain, sucking all the bitcoins off the bitcoin blockchain and onto ours and creating perfect pegs in the process.

Total estimated cost:

$200k, a mere $5,000 Ethereum IPO investment (sold today)

We would effectively become bitcoin's "lightning network"

dannotestein previously stated that he is doing an ipo of BlockTrades
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21509.0.html

In that case, if he considers the sidechain project to be feasible and profitable, he will be able to finance it. I guess we could fund raise to loan him the money to get started until his ipo goes through.

Too bad the ipo isn't open to US residents:
"...please note that this offering is NOT available to US and Cayman Islands citizens and residents."

Is there any indication that he'll even do sidechains anytime soon?  It'd be nice to know the steps he needs to get there besides 3 months and ~$200k.  He may have already too much on his plate or may need more devs.

[onceuponatime]

Didn't you hear the mumble?

Dannostein already has code for another project he could monnetize here, and we could have a multisig sidechain in 3 months effectively allowing bitcoins to trade on our 3 second smartchain, sucking all the bitcoins off the bitcoin blockchain and onto ours and creating perfect pegs in the process.

Total estimated cost:

$200k, a mere $5,000 Ethereum IPO investment (sold today)

We would effectively become bitcoin's "lightning network"

dannotestein previously stated that he is doing an ipo of BlockTrades
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21509.0.html

In that case, if he considers the sidechain project to be feasible and profitable, he will be able to finance it. I guess we could fund raise to loan him the money to get started until his ipo goes through.

[TravelsAsia]

Didn't you hear the mumble?

Dannostein already has code for another project he could monnetize here, and we could have a multisig sidechain in 3 months effectively allowing bitcoins to trade on our 3 second smartchain, sucking all the bitcoins off the bitcoin blockchain and onto ours and creating perfect pegs in the process.

Total estimated cost:

$200k, a mere $5,000 Ethereum IPO investment (sold today)

We would effectively become bitcoin's "lightning network"

If some code already exists is it possible for a rough proof of concept?  Having something to show this is even possible would help fundraising efforts.