Author Topic: Supply  (Read 2251 times)

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Offline KenMonkey

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Supply
« on: May 13, 2016, 02:40:17 am »
Crucial to price is the liquid supply and expected future supply. Where can I get good info and a chart of the supply of bitshares over time? Coinmarketcap lists the current supply but I can't see a chart. Cryptofresh should have all kinds of charts, like blockchain.info.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Supply
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2016, 06:29:35 am »
BitShares has a FIXED supply. There is no dilution ..
1B BTS, however, are in the reserve pool of BitShares that can be used to fund things AFTER shareholder approval via on-chain voting.
block producers are paid from the reserve as well

Take a look at:
http://cryptofresh.com/reserve
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Offline oldmine

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Re: Supply
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2016, 10:55:39 am »
BitShares has a FIXED supply. There is no dilution ..
1B BTS, however, are in the reserve pool of BitShares that can be used to fund things AFTER shareholder approval via on-chain voting.
block producers are paid from the reserve as well

Take a look at:
http://cryptofresh.com/reserve

Whether its "in reserve" or "dilution" is just word games/semantics. The effect is the same.

Is that 1Billion BTS still available after November? I know the vesting ends at that point but does the rate of dilution that can be voted for go down as well?

Offline svk

Re: Supply
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2016, 11:30:26 am »
BitShares has a FIXED supply. There is no dilution ..
1B BTS, however, are in the reserve pool of BitShares that can be used to fund things AFTER shareholder approval via on-chain voting.
block producers are paid from the reserve as well

Take a look at:
http://cryptofresh.com/reserve

Whether its "in reserve" or "dilution" is just word games/semantics. The effect is the same.

Is that 1Billion BTS still available after November? I know the vesting ends at that point but does the rate of dilution that can be voted for go down as well?

Unrelated. The vesting balances are from the merger that took total supply from ~2 billion to ~2.5 billion. The reserve fund is equivalent to what would have been the max supply of Bitshares 1.0 throughout it's lifetime at maximum dilution minus the ~2.5 billion supply at the launch of 2.0, which comes out to ~1 billion BTS.

I realize that explanation is a bit convoluted.  The Bitcoin equivalent would be that the remaining ~5.5 million BTC were issued right now, but were locked in a "reserve fund" that could be distributed (or not) through some kind of voting at a capped rate. Transaction fees would also replenish the reserve fund.
Worker: dev.bitsharesblocks

Offline Chronos

Re: Supply
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2016, 02:25:52 pm »
Where can I get good info and a chart of the supply of bitshares over time? Coinmarketcap lists the current supply but I can't see a chart.
Great question. We could use better data on this, as the Cryptofresh pages are a bit confusing to newcomers.

Note: Coinmarketcap is showing more supply than currently exists. There's a 2-year vesting taking place that ends in November, and after it's complete, then the supply will match CMC. Basically, in November of 2014, the supply was expanded from 2B to 2.5B, vesting over two years to certain people (not me, haha). The CMC total was immediately increased to 2.5B to make the total market cap look more attractive, and BTS has been playing catch-up ever since.

As for supply going forward, it is basically this:

  • increases by worker pay
  • increases by witness pay
  • decreases by fees paid (20% of all fees are burned)

The decrease in the Reserve Fund at http://cryptofresh.com/reserve is the amount that the supply is increasing.

We really could use an explainer video on this topic. I might put forward a worker proposal...  :)

Offline oldmine

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Re: Supply
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2016, 02:27:05 pm »
Unrelated. The vesting balances are from the merger that took total supply from ~2 billion to ~2.5 billion. The reserve fund is equivalent to what would have been the max supply of Bitshares 1.0 throughout it's lifetime at maximum dilution minus the ~2.5 billion supply at the launch of 2.0, which comes out to ~1 billion BTS.

I realize that explanation is a bit convoluted.  The Bitcoin equivalent would be that the remaining ~5.5 million BTC were issued right now, but were locked in a "reserve fund" that could be distributed (or not) through some kind of voting at a capped rate. Transaction fees would also replenish the reserve fund.

:-\ Thanks, but will the 1 billion reserve fund always be available for spending, or does it have a "halving" date?

Offline Chronos

Re: Supply
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2016, 04:00:33 pm »
Always available -- until it is spent! Then I bet it will be like the USA debt limit: we must raise the spending limit! :P

Offline oldmine

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Re: Supply
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2016, 04:26:13 pm »
Always available -- until it is spent! Then I bet it will be like the USA debt limit: we must raise the spending limit! :P

If we actually have to spend 1 billion more BTS on workers it will be because this project just fails to grow a userbase. At that point there wont be any active voters left anyway.

Offline KenMonkey

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Re: Supply
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2016, 01:22:50 pm »
BitShares has a FIXED supply. There is no dilution ..
1B BTS, however, are in the reserve pool of BitShares that can be used to fund things AFTER shareholder approval via on-chain voting.
block producers are paid from the reserve as well

Take a look at:
http://cryptofresh.com/reserve

Thank you all so much.

Fixed supply is good. In my opinion and probably in most stakeholder's opinions, the max supply must never be increased.

The only supply I'm interested in is LIQUID (currently spendable by individuals) supply and expected curve(s) of increase (or decrease  ::))

Maybe with the data here I can construct something like a chart. Charts and graphs, heaps of them, all the variables you can think of. Charts make things easy to see, the lack of charts is worrisome, like someone's trying to hide. Perhaps I shall propose a worker to make cryptofresh (or some other blockchain browser) have all the same sorts of charts as blockchain.info.


Unrelated. The vesting balances are from the merger that took total supply from ~2 billion to ~2.5 billion. The reserve fund is equivalent to what would have been the max supply of Bitshares 1.0 throughout it's lifetime at maximum dilution minus the ~2.5 billion supply at the launch of 2.0, which comes out to ~1 billion BTS.

I realize that explanation is a bit convoluted.  The Bitcoin equivalent would be that the remaining ~5.5 million BTC were issued right now, but were locked in a "reserve fund" that could be distributed (or not) through some kind of voting at a capped rate. Transaction fees would also replenish the reserve fund.

Bananas!  2014 was ages ago.

For some clarity. Please give me a yea if I'm right here: The merger never changed the maximum possible supply of BTS (~3.7). It changed the structure of the liquid supply increase. The merger put ~.5 billion into vesting balances to be released over about 2 years (wut??) and put ~1 billion into a reserve fund to be distributed as voters see fit (cool).

If we want to see more happy sharers we need to be super clear on communicating limited and cointrolled supply increase, like Bitcoin has always been.
It's a bloody awesome feature that the supply is limited and the shareholders vote how the reserve gets released. Smart, and it makes me want to be a shareholder! xoxo bitshares.

found this old thing, I miss bitsharesblocks a lil bit.
Hello,

I could not find clear documentation abut the coin supply.
How new coins are created?
Is there any limit and time frame?

Thanks

Here the nice chart: https://bitsharesblocks.com/charts/supply

Offline xeroc

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Re: Supply
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2016, 01:56:48 pm »
Thank you all so much.

Fixed supply is good. In my opinion and probably in most stakeholder's opinions, the max supply must never be increased.

The only supply I'm interested in is LIQUID (currently spendable by individuals) supply and expected curve(s) of increase (or decrease  ::))

Maybe with the data here I can construct something like a chart. Charts and graphs, heaps of them, all the variables you can think of. Charts make things easy to see, the lack of charts is worrisome, like someone's trying to hide. Perhaps I shall propose a worker to make cryptofresh (or some other blockchain browser) have all the same sorts of charts as blockchain.info.
Sounds great!

Quote
For some clarity. Please give me a yea if I'm right here: The merger never changed the maximum possible supply of BTS (~3.7). It changed the structure of the liquid supply increase. The merger put ~.5 billion into vesting balances to be released over about 2 years (wut??) and put ~1 billion into a reserve fund to be distributed as voters see fit (cool).
Not quite. The merge has "merged" BTS, DNS and VOTE and increased the
supply to payout they DNS and VOTE holders. This payout is put into
vesting for 2 years which will end soonish. The total supply was
increased to what we have now. 3.7B or so.

The funds in the reservers are from the original proposal of Bitshares
1. There people could have voted in "delegates" that work for BTS which
could have resulted in a dilution of "up to" 3.7B BTS *if* they all had
been paid 100% payrate from start. Everything that was not paid in BTS1
was put into the reserve fund and is now available for the BTS
shareholders to be spend .. or not.
Since the launch of BTS2, if thing as little as 2% have been paid to
workers and witnesses (block producers). The rest is still there.

Quote
If we want to see more happy sharers we need to be super clear on communicating limited and cointrolled supply increase, like Bitcoin has always been.
It's a bloody awesome feature that the supply is limited and the shareholders vote how the reserve gets released. Smart, and it makes me want to be a shareholder! xoxo bitshares.
I agree but the whole structure of BitShares is more business style and
not as easy to understand as in Bitcoin. We obviously struggle to get
this picture across.
If you could write something down or draw some charts, I would love to
help you get them on Bitshares.org .. putting them on bitshares.EU or
docs.bitshares.eu is easy to do though!

Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Supply
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2016, 05:17:16 pm »
Sorry, im new here I saw xeroc saying total supply is 3.7 billion but in coinmarkecap  n cryptofreshit say.2.5, wich one is right?
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Offline Chronos

Re: Supply
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2016, 05:34:07 pm »
Current total supply is less than 2.5 billion, because the merger from 2014 is still being vested. Xeroc's number is the maximum that can be created via witness pay and worker pay (unless the "spending limit" is raised).

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Supply
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2016, 06:11:37 pm »
n what is probability of an increase in supply from those 2.5 b? Wich should I take a look to evaluate that?

Lets say supply is set to 3.7 b,  price will be decreasing too? Will I receive new shares related to my % before the increase in supply?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 06:20:09 pm by bitsharesbrazil »
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Offline KenMonkey

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Re: Supply
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2016, 12:56:06 am »
n what is probability of an increase in supply from those 2.5 b? Wich should I take a look to evaluate that?

Lets say supply is set to 3.7 b,  price will be decreasing too? Will I receive new shares related to my % before the increase in supply?

After Nov the liquid supply will be approx 2.5b. We will never approach 3.7b supply for 2 reasons (at least) BTS is constantly being burned, also it's unlikely that we will vote to use the entire reserve . Maybe 3b BTS will be around in 10-20 years from now.

Yes, if supply moves to the right the price should fall. I suspect demand will increase much much faster than the supply increase, which will be plenty to counteract this and increase the price. https://plus.maths.org/issue40/features/wilson/fix_supply.gif

If you start a witness (node) you will get a part of the liquid supply increase  (much like bitcoin).

Hope that helps BTSBrazil  ;D
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 12:58:54 am by KenMonkey »

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Supply
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2016, 01:11:16 am »
Yes, that hello. Thanks!
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