Author Topic: Lets bring " earn x% interest on 'anything' " back to Bitshares!  (Read 53423 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Geneko

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile

Your strong attitude when there are so many greater issues leads me to be skeptical of your perspective.

Lastly the referral program like so many other aspects of the entire BTS ecosystem is a grand experiment. Don't be too hasty to presume it won't work without adequate data.


I would say you are right about that one. I could try to explain my attitude.
We are not talking here about peanuts but about basic revenue stream distribution. I think the OP has that in mind when open this thread.

This revenue stream is meant for covering basic expenses aka witness pay and further development aka workers. Excessive could be distributed as X% to share holders, referral rewards and etc..
Reserve fund here serves only as a buffer pool that could compensate for iliquidity during development and user acceptance faze but if not properly managed could become insolvent.
This is basically situation we currently have. Current model is unsustainable. We are spending more then we earn.
It is not critical at this point I would say, if we maintain current level of spending RF could last about 30 years. But the spending is increasing not decreasing. I could go one with further elaboration but this is going way out of this topic.

Now how could we talk about profit distribution, when we are basically working at a loss. I didn't involve in this discussion from the very beginning, but tried to contribute to already elaborated idea to decrease referral spending. Speaking about the devil I have questioned very essence of referral system which drains 80% of revenue stream from a new client. In such a huge cut that is given, there could be no value to support that.
No one seams to be able to explain that. I am afraid there is no deeper understanding behind that attitude neither. Only proclamations such as speed, flash, clash, turbo, xyz million etc.. Sorry but I cant buy that. I could further speculate on interests behind such approach but it goes way beyond scope of this discussion.

So I was against that idea back then in Max Wright days, and I am obviously now, but who cares anyway.

If properly managed this revenue stream could provide profit distribution model OP describes and provide way,way better marketing then current referral system does. 

Offline fav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
  • No Pain, No Gain
    • View Profile
    • Follow Me!
  • BitShares: fav
Let's not make this all about referral system, this topic is too important.


Here's a thought :

Take 20% off of the fee pool.
15% go to ALL DIVIDENDS
5% go to LTM DIVIDENDS

that would lead to yet another cycle, investors would upgrade, fuel fee pool by upgrading and marketers/registrars  would earn as well.

Win win win?

Offline Pheonike

Let the businesses that developed on bts do mlm and big referal schemes. The core bts proposition should be simple the more bts you hold or lock away gives you a % of revenue generated by the blockchain. Short and simple. Anything more complex is a layer on top such as OL.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk


Offline konelectric

BitshareX the good old days. I remember them well. With the U.S. Dollar losing 4% value per year, I was buying bitassets the were 5% or higher. This was a great selling point for Bitshares. After Bitshares 2.0 came out, it was taken away. Some People left Bitshares because or this. I traded off my bitassets for Bitshares (Bitshares at less has share dropping). Is there any lessons learned from Steem Dollars?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 06:34:34 pm by konelectric »
Tweeter: Konelectric. Steemit: Konelectric. Youtube: Patrick Konshak. Success Council: Yourship. Mumble: Yourship or Konelectric.

Offline Thom


Referral systems are multi billion dollars of magnitude better than what anyone else could possibly add to BitShares. Problem is no one here has any clue.

Then pls elaborate this multi billion dollar idea. Referral system is derivative of recognition of life time value of the client. New clients value is sum of all profit they bring to a business during their life time. Small part of that value is given to the ones that bring this new business, basically as one time reward rarely as a fee.  Now, how Bitshares referral system fits to this general idea. I think this referral system doesn't have Bitshares platform as business in mind.

I disagree, and wonder where your strong attitude is coming from.

I do agree we haven't see significant value from referral system yet, but that's primarily due to the lack of utility to non-crypto / more mainstream crowd. Once that starts to take off I think the referral program will show value.

Also Max Write did come up with the idea of MLM to market BitShares, but the referral program is not truly MLM as it cuts off benefit at (2 ?) levels. I use MLM as a easy way to say "pyramid scheme".

Referral program concept is grass roots marketing. It takes very little away from BitShares if it isn't used much (like so far), but will be an inexpensive way to market BitShares while at the same time promoting individual business for those with a sales / marketing interest.

Your strong attitude when there are so many greater issues leads me to be skeptical of your perspective.

Lastly the referral program like so many other aspects of the entire BTS ecosystem is a grand experiment. Don't be too hasty to presume it won't work without adequate data.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline Geneko

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile

Referral systems are multi billion dollars of magnitude better than what anyone else could possibly add to BitShares. Problem is no one here has any clue.

Then pls elaborate this multi billion dollar idea. Referral system is derivative of recognition of life time value of the client. New clients value is sum of all profit they bring to a business during their life time. Small part of that value is given to the ones that bring this new business, basically as one time reward rarely as a fee.  Now, how Bitshares referral system fits to this general idea. I think this referral system doesn't have Bitshares platform as business in mind.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 10:58:20 am by Geneko »

Offline fav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
  • No Pain, No Gain
    • View Profile
    • Follow Me!
  • BitShares: fav
This referral sys was BS since its inception. Its overall costs are several orders of magnitude higher then its benefits.
That was Max Wright idea, I remember BM was against at the time. It is mystery to me how they manage to persuade him to change his mind and include it in BTS 2.0, as well as leather disappearance of its sole creator. It reminds me of amateur marketing Bitshares consumes since Brian Page.

Overall this system didn't bring anything to Bitshares except a benefit to entities which take advantage of this hidden taxation tool. Which brings me to the point. I am afraid it will be very hard to get enough support for the change of this useless feature. But we'll see.

I disagree. The fee change to nothing and the lack of features for ltm rendered it useless. Referral systems are multi billion dollars of magnitude better than what anyone else could possibly add to BitShares. Problem is no one here has any clue.

Offline vegolino

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 450
  • Reality is Information
    • View Profile
This referral sys was BS since its inception. Its overall costs are several orders of magnitude higher then its benefits.
That was Max Wright idea, I remember BM was against at the time. It is mystery to me how they manage to persuade him to change his mind and include it in BTS 2.0, as well as leather disappearance of its sole creator. It reminds me of amateur marketing Bitshares consumes since Brian Page.

Overall this system didn't bring anything to Bitshares except a benefit to entities which take advantage of this hidden taxation tool. Which brings me to the point. I am afraid it will be very hard to get enough support for the change of this useless feature. But we'll see.
+5%

Offline Pheonike

This referral sys was BS since its inception. Its overall costs are several orders of magnitude higher then its benefits.
That was Max Wright idea, I remember BM was against at the time. It is mystery to me how they manage to persuade him to change his mind and include it in BTS 2.0, as well as leather disappearance of its sole creator. It reminds me of amateur marketing Bitshares consumes since Brian Page.

Overall this system didn't bring anything to Bitshares except a benefit to entities which take advantage of this hidden taxation tool. Which brings me to the point. I am afraid it will be very hard to get enough support for the change of this useless feature. But we'll see.
I agree. The referal system in its present form is pointless. I think it should be a one time payout bonus based on some metric the new user hits. The new user should either generate a certain revenue in fees and/or reach a certain amount of activity over say a 3 to 6 month period. This is more in line with traditional referal programs. Those lifetime fees currently would be better off going to a yield pool for all.

LTM can still offer lower fees overall and perhaps no fees when buying bitaseests with bts.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 10:27:00 pm by Pheonike »

Offline Geneko

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
This referral sys was BS since its inception. Its overall costs are several orders of magnitude higher then its benefits.
That was Max Wright idea, I remember BM was against at the time. It is mystery to me how they manage to persuade him to change his mind and include it in BTS 2.0, as well as leather disappearance of its sole creator. It reminds me of amateur marketing Bitshares consumes since Brian Page.

Overall this system didn't bring anything to Bitshares except a benefit to entities which take advantage of this hidden taxation tool. Which brings me to the point. I am afraid it will be very hard to get enough support for the change of this useless feature. But we'll see.

Offline R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1004
    • View Profile

I believe that we should offer more than 20%, this is something we could potentially vote on within the client. How would we go about voting on multiple possible parameter outcomes within the client? Best to bring this topic up in the next Bitshares hangout on Friday then move forwards to polls with a few hand selected combinations?

How about:

Network; x% Interest; Referral System
20, 40, 40
30, 40, 30

first of all, before we talk more than the golden girls (as usual), please find a dev and get a price estimation on the costs. also, pretty sure this needs a hardfork. the parameters could be set by the committee, but let's talk about the details once this can be implemented
Is there a pool of known Bitshares contract developers that we can work with?

Hardforks are no problem, we only need 21 clients to upgrade for it to be successful. Besides, we've got several additional hardfork upgrades awaiting integration (MPA hardening) that could also piggyback on a single hardfork.

Offline fav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
  • No Pain, No Gain
    • View Profile
    • Follow Me!
  • BitShares: fav

I believe that we should offer more than 20%, this is something we could potentially vote on within the client. How would we go about voting on multiple possible parameter outcomes within the client? Best to bring this topic up in the next Bitshares hangout on Friday then move forwards to polls with a few hand selected combinations?

How about:

Network; x% Interest; Referral System
20, 40, 40
30, 40, 30

first of all, before we talk more than the golden girls (as usual), please find a dev and get a price estimation on the costs. also, pretty sure this needs a hardfork. the parameters could be set by the committee, but let's talk about the details once this can be implemented

Offline fav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
  • No Pain, No Gain
    • View Profile
    • Follow Me!
  • BitShares: fav
I really like this thread, it reminds me of the thinking and enthusiasm in 2014.

I am somewhat surprised @fav hasn't vocalized more resistance to reducing the % for the referral program; perhaps he recognizes the broader benefit of interest on anything?


i just like dividends more than the current referral program.

Offline Thom

I really like this thread, it reminds me of the thinking and enthusiasm in 2014.

I am somewhat surprised @fav hasn't vocalized more resistance to reducing the % for the referral program; perhaps he recognizes the broader benefit of interest on anything?

However I would caution against reducing it too much, as I believe that the referral program will provide a powerful incentive for grass roots marketing as well as provide an income stream for those with more of a sales and marketing skill-set once adoption kicks into full swing with a more mainstream audience.

The good news is we have a wide range of numbers (%-wise) to playaround with to get the balance right. Whatever form the implementation would take these need to be surfaced as committee parameters so adjustments to them can be made as conditions / needs change.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1004
    • View Profile
@Customminer -- I'm not sure over what period time those fees were accumulated.  But it can't possibly be since inception of BTS 2.0.  I don't even think that pool includes all fees currently being collected.  I mean, where is BTS on that list?  The overwhelming majority of fees are collected in BTS, not those other assets, right?  So we need some clarification as to what that pool is, exactly. 

But in the meantime, looking at the top 20 "most fees paid" list on cryptofresh, it appears we've generated at least ~17M BTS in fees since BTS 2.0 launched.  That's about 1M BTS per month.  Actually, it's more since this is only the top 20 accounts in terms of fees paid.  So I think it's pretty close to my guess of 1.2M BTS monthly.  Not to mention, the current monthly rate of fee collection should be higher than the monthly average over the last 18 months considering the substantial growth in transactions we've been experiencing.  On the other hand, a lot of the fees listed below may be from creating assets and therefore more "one-time" in nature (or at least more irregular). 

Anyway, this is just a bunch of guess work.  We need to know the actual rate of monthly fee collection.  But if my guess is even close, then this idea of redirecting a portion of referral rewards could fund substantial bitAsset demand without having to increase fees.  Even if I'm off by an order of magnitude, then this could still be worth pursuing considering, as @fav mentioned, it could kick off a virtuous cycle that could end up being substantial.

Excellent, I was thinking that the fee tables on Cryptofresh were a tad off. These figures make the concept far more feasible & worthwhile of implementing. The more successful the BTS DEX gets, the better the interest rates become.. if only FIAT banks worked like that, haha!

I was just thinking about how exchanges would behave if we introduced this functionality.. Would they claim the interest? If they did, would they pass this onto their users? If they didn't collect the interest, or didn't forwards the interest to the rightful asset holders could this seriously reduce the quantity of coins being held on centralized exchanges? It may tilt balance back in favour of decentralization.


By the way, we really should not contemplate reducing the network's current 20% share of the fees.  That would be inflationary, which would decrease demand for BTS.  It would also make it more difficult to fund worker proposals.  If anything, we should increase the network's share, which would be deflationary and would also make it easier to fund worker proposals.  Both factors would help increase demand for BTS and help compound the effect of offering interest by contributing even more to the virtuous circle.
Funding worker proposals in the short term would not be affected, as the BTS stored in the reserve pool is substantial. That said, I agree that reducing the network fees would lead to BTS being made liquid in a more rapid fashion, but I do not agree that it is entirely inflationary as it is just reintroducing coins (which would otherwise have been temporarily locked away) back into the public's coin supply in a more timely manner. A more explicitly inflationary move would be to sharedrop BTS from the reserve.

I think we can make substantial room for 'x% interest on anything' out of the referral system's fees.

By the way, we really should not contemplate reducing the network's current 20% share of the fees.  That would be inflationary, which would decrease demand for BTS.  It would also make it more difficult to fund worker proposals.  If anything, we should increase the network's share, which would be deflationary and would also make it easier to fund worker proposals.  Both factors would help increase demand for BTS and help compound the effect of offering interest by contributing even more to the virtuous circle.

agree, just take 20% of referral income. that way registrars could still maintain 20%, marketers could get 20% and 20% interest
I believe that we should offer more than 20%, this is something we could potentially vote on within the client. How would we go about voting on multiple possible parameter outcomes within the client? Best to bring this topic up in the next Bitshares hangout on Friday then move forwards to polls with a few hand selected combinations?

How about:

Network; x% Interest; Referral System
20, 40, 40
30, 40, 30