OpenLedger propose Bitshares 3.0 enhancements (NEW)

[yvv]

Oh, I thought it would automatically convert my whatever holdings to btc when I withdraw through it... Well if I need to sell all my bts for btc and then withdraw through that system then yes, there is no problem at all

EDIT: What happens with the people who are already on the DEX? Let's say there's someone who holds bitBTC in their wallet, then you implement this awesome new feature - they won't have equal amount of btc in the "gateway wallet". And if I sell them my bts for bitbtc, I'll receive no btc to mine. Will they need to move their bitbtc out to a centralized exchange and go in again, now through the gateway? Am i missing something?

To withdraw your BTS or bitBTC or whatever through BTC gateway, you would need to find somebody who wants to buy you BTS or bitBTC or whatever for BTC from you. That somebody would need to deposit exactly the same amount of BTC which you want to withdraw. This works the same with centralized or decentralized gateway.

[Ravid]

Oh, I thought it would automatically convert my whatever holdings to btc when I withdraw through it... Well if I need to sell all my bts for btc and then withdraw through that system then yes, there is no problem at all

EDIT: What happens with the people who are already on the DEX? Let's say there's someone who holds bitBTC in their wallet, then you implement this awesome new feature - they won't have equal amount of btc in the "gateway wallet". And if I sell them my bts for bitbtc, I'll receive no btc to mine. Will they need to move their bitbtc out to a centralized exchange and go in again, now through the gateway? Am i missing something?

[yvv]

Yes, I was inconsistent with my original point

What if I deposit x btc and buy bts with it, then bts goes to 330$ - how can that be adressed? By putting up some disclaimer or something?

What exactly do you want to disclaim? That you have $330 worth of BTS and somebody else has x BTC? There is no problem to address here.

[Ravid]

Yes, I was inconsistent with my original point

What if I deposit x btc and buy bts with it, then bts goes to 330$ - how can that be adressed? By putting up some disclaimer or something?

[pc]

II think that your earnings are someone else's loses so all backed BTC should be able to pay all earnings, am i wrong ?

In the grand scheme of things it's correct but irrelevant. Your gains on the dex can be completely independent of your trading. You can just hold your coins there and the price can suddenly surge - who's loss is it? Some guys from China? How do you track it?
The trading-related gains are indeed losses for someone else, but again, how do you track it?

Your original point was this:

If I understand it correctly, the solution of having bitshares-controlled btc wallet won't work in the scenario of depositing btc to the dex, then gaining profit from trading and then withdrawing. The wallet will have only the btc that is deposited there, so you won't be able to withdraw all your newly found money.

There are two different kinds of profit to look at here:
1. You deposit BTC, BTC goes up in value, you withdraw you BTC and you are richer than before. This is not a problem for the gateway, because the gateway holds the exact amount that you deposited and will return that to you upon withdrawal.
2. You deposit x BTC, someone else deposits y BTC. After some trading you own x+y BTC. You withdraw x+y BTC for a profit of y BTC. This is not a problem for the gateway either - x+y BTC have been deposited, and x+y BTC will be withdrawn.

[Ravid]

II think that your earnings are someone else's loses so all backed BTC should be able to pay all earnings, am i wrong ?

Exactly!

In the grand scheme of things it's correct but irrelevant. Your gains on the dex can be completely independent of your trading. You can just hold your coins there and the price can suddenly surge - who's loss is it? Some guys from China? How do you track it?
The trading-related gains are indeed losses for someone else, but again, how do you track it?

[pc]

II think that your earnings are someone else's loses so all backed BTC should be able to pay all earnings, am i wrong ?

Exactly!

[Victor118]

II think that your earnings are someone else's loses so all backed BTC should be able to pay all earnings, am i wrong ?

Sorry if my english is not very good, french people don't use to speak very well english
I 'm new on bitshares and i like the concept.

If I understand it correctly Creation of Trustless (Decentralized) BTC gateway for DEX will permit to use BTC as collateral of MPA.
It sounds great, people will be able to trade MPA on DEX without knowing BTS, it can attract lot of new exchange and then lots of traders.
May be it would be even better feature if it can be extended to others major crypto-currencies in the future, is that possible ?

[Ravid]

If I understand it correctly, the solution of having bitshares-controlled btc wallet won't work in the scenario of depositing btc to the dex, then gaining profit from trading and then withdrawing. The wallet will have only the btc that is deposited there, so you won't be able to withdraw all your newly found money.

[Digital Lucifer]

Dear Digital Lucifer, I'm glad to see your activity and so loud words. The whole system will be happy when you will deliver any quality solution or even product on BitShares network.

The main idea of the poll and topic is preparation before creating RnD workgroup and getting feedback from community, about wishes and needs. Any specific plan or project will appear only in the end of 2nd stage, as well as team of experienced developers will be combined in the team and announced. It's not a wise approach to start development, before goals and aims are clear to all parties. Listed ideas were created not only because "it would be cool to have this on BitShares", but also, because we have 2 teams (business analytics and developers) agreed, that in the end, solutions like these are technically possible and demanded. They will never seem easy and so obvious, as presented, so it's not surprise for me, that your reaction is negative mostly.
I'm also not a forum-speaker and don't see sense in debating right now, before we've spent time on researching and tried prototyping. I believe, that you're experienced enough and can bring a lot of profit in ecosystem, so will look attentively on your development process and github account, for possible useful learning.

Ivan,

Appreciate your very strategic and well crafted answer. You seem to have a very well speaking/communicating skills for a non forum-speaker, but i do agree with you we are not here to debate. My github account is more private since all our projects are being handled with Asana and Slack.

I would really appreciated if you would add me in Telegram by using number from signature.

Cheers,

Luci.

[Bitshiz]

I don't think theres any type of fully trustless BTC gateway (sidechain) but some proposed are very secure....

Where are these proposals if you don't mind pointing me in that direction?

I am very interested in this possibility which could definitely be a game changer.

I imagine that if the BTS chain could somehow control a BTC address and privatekey  without risk of anything being leaked then it is a great idea. I absolutely don't think it would hurt BTS. But to make sure it doesn't, you could maybe lower the fees on the dex for trading a BTS pair than any other pair to incentivise a demand for BTS. For example, trading fees would be less for BTS:bitBTC than bitUSD:bitBTC.

[ivandev]

Dear Digital Lucifer, I'm glad to see your activity and so loud words. The whole system will be happy when you will deliver any quality solution or even product on BitShares network.

The main idea of the poll and topic is preparation before creating RnD workgroup and getting feedback from community, about wishes and needs. Any specific plan or project will appear only in the end of 2nd stage, as well as team of experienced developers will be combined in the team and announced. It's not a wise approach to start development, before goals and aims are clear to all parties. Listed ideas were created not only because "it would be cool to have this on BitShares", but also, because we have 2 teams (business analytics and developers) agreed, that in the end, solutions like these are technically possible and demanded. They will never seem easy and so obvious, as presented, so it's not surprise for me, that your reaction is negative mostly.
I'm also not a forum-speaker and don't see sense in debating right now, before we've spent time on researching and tried prototyping. I believe, that you're experienced enough and can bring a lot of profit in ecosystem, so will look attentively on your development process and github account, for possible useful learning.

[intelliguy]

I'm strong believer that Bitshares can sort out roadmap it has with a lot more performance if developers put a bit more effort in project management.

Developers are incentivized by two main things:

a) Health of the system (easy fixes to keep it running)
b) Financial incentive either by their holdings, or by an angel-investor financing them to propose and implement something

What we're lacking in the most is:

a) Users and current investors really understanding how this decentralized company works  (ie: there are no project managers, unless someone steps up to the plate)

b) Getting involved by voting and reading proposals... Giving their opinions, and help locate developers willing to take on the jobs we require.

Instead what we have a lot of is:

a) Users and current investors blaming developers.  Blaming Stan. Blaming the markets. Blaming everyone. Blame, blame, blame.

(This accomplishes nothing, and isn't helpful).   

What is cool about Bitshares, is any of us can make a difference and get this changed, if we work together by using our BTS voting power....

• Work together? In a decentralized environment? For the common good of all Bitshares users and our future?
• It is possible.  Once we realize we have to do exactly that...

[Digital Lucifer]

So, if anyone has one, i'm happy to comment in the future, white papers, nice diagrams, charts, whatever is ok for a marketing event, not for any serious development. I'm sure most will agree on this.

Since there are more users, and investors, using Bitshares than there are developers, there is always a wide divide of people who have opinions, suggestions, and complaints.

Right about now is when the appreciation of the teams Bytemaster use to lead developing Bitshares is missed.

It's like the system is on autopilot (development wise) and only now are people raising important questions about how the system works, where trust lies, how much trust is "too much trust" and now a recent discussion about NDA's among proxy witnesses has been raised.

This is all very long overdue, and I'm happy to see it.

There is a lot of interested money in this platform (always has been), so financing our future is going to be quite easy.

But when you say:

I seriously have to stop answering and stop talking completely. There is so much going on, and currently how it's being presented is just a talk, even from my side.

You are incorrect.

It's not "just a talk".  It's a united level of understanding, that is really important going forward.

Deliver that as proposal even with a broken monkey in the box, and i'm sure that any serious businessman related to this network will push the proposal through.

I'd rather not see lots of proposals with a broken monkey in the box.  That just leads to confusion, frustration, and can camouflage real decent proposals if they are hidden among all the other broken and non-possible proposals.

I hear your frustration, but removing talk in the favor of creating broken monkey in the box proposals is not a better solution.

I agree on 100% of what you've said, but i have to clear up few things that you got wrong about my words.

1.) "I seriously have to stop answering and stop talking completely. There is so much going on, and currently how it's being presented is just a talk, even from my side. " - I'm lead developer in my company and CTO in another IT company that Ross owns for 4 years. 4 years even having my own company never moved me away from the development. Having Ross as a business partner lets me be out of management even for my own company so i can dedicate my real skills to contribution for our business, where everybody are doing what they are most skilled to do. I've been slapping myself in that sentence over the wrists, by talking to much, delivering to little, so i want to back off to development, coming back here with results and real proposals, not just talk, because we do have healthy and realistic concept and ideas in progress not going over limits of ourselves. Spending my time here for talk is taking time from project management and coding/engineering which i personally enjoy to do.

2.) "Deliver that as proposal even with a broken monkey in the box, and i'm sure that any serious businessman related to this network will push the proposal through." - EVEN if you have broken monkey with knowing exactly whats broken about it, knowing how to fix it or proposing possible fixes with prices and estimates on it, and doing estimate on an each fix, you are being professional as Mitsubishi Factory in Japan. It's matter of personal opinion, and as i said you are completely right 100% about all what you've said, but i prefer rather visible broken monkey that can be tested, rather than paper that is saying that monkey will run in a golden box, but i cant see monkey or a box. Developers proposal needs to based on a demo of the work for project/proposal being made. At least outside of Bitshares world, like in regular B2B circumstances. I'm strong believer that Bitshares can sort out roadmap it has with a lot more performance if developers put a bit more effort in project management.

Since it comes from a developer, i think its rather rational thing to say

Cheers, and i really agree with you and understand fully your perspective on it. It's just small difference of an opinions how things to be done.

Luci

[intelliguy]

So, if anyone has one, i'm happy to comment in the future, white papers, nice diagrams, charts, whatever is ok for a marketing event, not for any serious development. I'm sure most will agree on this.

Since there are more users, and investors, using Bitshares than there are developers, there is always a wide divide of people who have opinions, suggestions, and complaints.

Right about now is when the appreciation of the teams Bytemaster use to lead developing Bitshares is missed.

It's like the system is on autopilot (development wise) and only now are people raising important questions about how the system works, where trust lies, how much trust is "too much trust" and now a recent discussion about NDA's among proxy witnesses has been raised.

This is all very long overdue, and I'm happy to see it.

There is a lot of interested money in this platform (always has been), so financing our future is going to be quite easy.

But when you say:

I seriously have to stop answering and stop talking completely. There is so much going on, and currently how it's being presented is just a talk, even from my side.

You are incorrect.

It's not "just a talk".  It's a united level of understanding, that is really important going forward.

Deliver that as proposal even with a broken monkey in the box, and i'm sure that any serious businessman related to this network will push the proposal through.

I'd rather not see lots of proposals with a broken monkey in the box.  That just leads to confusion, frustration, and can camouflage real decent proposals if they are hidden among all the other broken and non-possible proposals.

I hear your frustration, but removing talk in the favor of creating broken monkey in the box proposals is not a better solution.