Author Topic: Why Need BSIP For Everything?  (Read 368 times)

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Offline armin

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Why Need BSIP For Everything?
« on: December 30, 2018, 04:54:23 am »
It seems like every time the proxies want witnesses to make a change, they write a BSIP for the witnesses to make the change.

The witnesses are already voted in and have the ability to change the feed/mssr however they like, if proxies do not like what a witness is doing, they can just vote him out.

BSIP stands for BitShares Improvement Proposal and changing parameters is not an improvement/feature, it is simply a tuning of numbers.

In fact, it is much better if witnesses decide parameters on their own (AND on their own opinion), this way we are more robust to decisions that could be destructive to Bitshares because some witnesses will disagree and tune their parameters accordingly


Please share your thoughts.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 04:56:32 am by armin »

Offline bitcrab

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Re: Why Need BSIP For Everything?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2018, 05:05:36 am »
It seems like every time the proxies want witnesses to make a change, they write a BSIP for the witnesses to make the change.

The witnesses are already voted in and have the ability to change the feed/mssr however they like, if proxies do not like what a witness is doing, they can just vote him out.

BSIP stands for BitShares Improvement Proposal and changing parameters is not an improvement/feature, it is simply a tuning of numbers.

In fact, it is much better if witnesses decide parameters on their own (AND on their own opinion), this way we are more robust to decisions that could be destructive to Bitshares because some witnesses will disagree and tune their parameters accordingly


Please share your thoughts.

No, witnesses are the employees of the system, they're supposed to do things based on the consensus of the community, not based on their own decision.

BSIP and the voting is the way for the community to reach consensus.

Offline armin

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Re: Why Need BSIP For Everything?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2018, 05:09:34 am »
They have the ability to change feed/mssr however they like, if you want to use BSIP for everything, feed/mssr should be set by proxies instead. What's the point in witnesses just copying the proxies decision? May as well just set the numbers themselves

Offline bitcrab

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Re: Why Need BSIP For Everything?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2018, 05:20:24 am »
They have the ability to change feed/mssr however they like, if you want to use BSIP for everything, feed/mssr should be set by proxies instead. What's the point in witnesses just copying the proxies decision? May as well just set the numbers themselves

ya, maybe it will be better to set MSSR&MCR as committee controlled parameters, but it is designed as witnesses feed value.

no point, but it's a consensus that things like MSSR&MCR are so important parameters that should not be changed without sufficient discussion and strong consensus.

Offline armin

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Re: Why Need BSIP For Everything?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2018, 05:22:34 am »
Maybe there's a reason it was originally like that, maybe not. We need the true vision.

Good conversation, other community members please give your opinions

Offline sschiessl

Re: Why Need BSIP For Everything?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2018, 06:36:36 am »
I agree that witnesses have the freedom with what, they are able to feed within their own rationalization.

Any witness must be able to justify their actions, and if they can't, risk being voted out.

The BSIP42 approach would also have been possible without the BSIP, but the BSIP42 allowed, or even more ordered them to do the experiment.

In general anything that can't be decided upon ad-hoc can be decided with a BSIP, in that sense the witnesses asked the shareholders if the witnesses risk being voted out if they change MSSR. I would still see the option that a witness feeds another parameter and provides justification for it, with the risk of being voted out. A BSIP is ultimate means of justification.

Offline pc

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Re: Why Need BSIP For Everything?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2018, 09:52:00 am »
IMO all witnesses should provide feeds that are based on the same underlying principles. It is a good thing to define these principles in the form of BSIPs, and let the witnesses handle the details themselves.

For example, if some witnesses follow BSIP-42 and some don't, there is the danger that the median feed jumps back and forth between two values that are relatively far apart. This would probably disrupt the markets and would also increase the danger of a global settlement.
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Offline armin

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Re: Why Need BSIP For Everything?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2018, 05:16:44 pm »
IMO all witnesses should provide feeds that are based on the same underlying principles. It is a good thing to define these principles in the form of BSIPs, and let the witnesses handle the details themselves.

For example, if some witnesses follow BSIP-42 and some don't, there is the danger that the median feed jumps back and forth between two values that are relatively far apart. This would probably disrupt the markets and would also increase the danger of a global settlement.

True, this happened earlier when some witnesses were providing crazy high feeds and some were providing normal feeds. There should be some clear consensus on what the terms "feed" and "mssr" mean. I think mssr is quite obvious, but feed had recently been redefined to something else, which is dangerous to the system 

EDIT: Actually, if some witnesses disagreed with BSIP42, they could feed much lower than the "normal" price to offset the high feeds. This is the meaning of decentralization. You are still correct that the feed would jump, but this problem is solved by having more delegates
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 08:38:38 pm by armin »

Offline Digital Lucifer

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Re: Why Need BSIP For Everything?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2018, 06:22:47 am »
IMO all witnesses should provide feeds that are based on the same underlying principles. It is a good thing to define these principles in the form of BSIPs, and let the witnesses handle the details themselves.

For example, if some witnesses follow BSIP-42 and some don't, there is the danger that the median feed jumps back and forth between two values that are relatively far apart. This would probably disrupt the markets and would also increase the danger of a global settlement.

True, this happened earlier when some witnesses were providing crazy high feeds and some were providing normal feeds. There should be some clear consensus on what the terms "feed" and "mssr" mean. I think mssr is quite obvious, but feed had recently been redefined to something else, which is dangerous to the system 

EDIT: Actually, if some witnesses disagreed with BSIP42, they could feed much lower than the "normal" price to offset the high feeds. This is the meaning of decentralization. You are still correct that the feed would jump, but this problem is solved by having more delegates

Unfortunately its not. Because there was plenty of examples where witnesses would be voted-in by specific proxies and then they would have to comply with proxy terms of price feed (how bitUSD met blackswan). So, more expense to the blockchain that will not provide variety (as you suggest) of price feeds, but even more establish centralization of individuals is not a solution in my opinion.

Quite correct in mathematical way that more delegates would be solving that, but IF they are only independent from sometime very wrong proxy request or to define more strong BSIP on limits of the feed configuration so they can all apply to the same matter. Now only first case where independent witnesses would be really decentralized, the other one is just again delegated and i don't know why everybody has a problem with it.

dPOS is not decentralized proof of stake, but DELEGATED one. Proxy delegates tasks to a witness. Witness delegates blocks to the chain. Committee delegates fees to the chain. Etc.

In my personal (non-biased) opinion - it's not a problem of technology, it's a problem of human error and inability to agree/unite as ecosystem --> hence why BSIP has to be written and in both cases (goes good or bad) - its well documented.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 06:26:50 am by Digital Lucifer »
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