fox、clockwork、blckchnd、elmato、crazybit、bangzi、magicwallt all ugly witness

[binggo]

Just because they have a nice graphic with many little arrows pointing everywhere doesn't mean it's going to work better than what we have.

If we still think they only have a nice graphic, we will see, just like the MAKER DAI.

a) using the DEX price for the feed is dangerous because such feedback loops tend to oscillate, and

I have said we can give the feed price(DEX price) a range of risk which will be controlled by CEX price(e.g. 1.05*CEX, CEX), dangerous didn't exit.

Using or not using the DEX price for the feed both have feedback loops, every asset with collatera will have feedback loops without doubt.

b) there is no such thing as a "correct" feed price when external markets are skewed due to political boundaries, so it is pointless to argue about it.

We just ask a "fair“ feed price，if i can't use the feed price to buy 1 bts from the CEX easily，i don't think it‘s a ”fair“ feed price.

Political exsits everywhere,  i don't think argue aout feed price is pointless, it‘s very important.

[yamtt]

mssr 100 can solve most problems

[clockwork]

Just because they have a nice graphic with many little arrows pointing everywhere doesn't mean it's going to work better than what we have.

I'm not against experimenting either, within reasonable bounds. All I'm saying is that

a) using the DEX price for the feed is dangerous because such feedback loops tend to oscillate, and
b) there is no such thing as a "correct" feed price when external markets are skewed due to political boundaries, so it is pointless to argue about it.

from what I can tell, they have an effective MSSR of 1.12 as far as the borrower is concerned. From that they take 10% for an insurance fund and place the collateral in the market for an MSSR of 1.02 (as far as the buyers are concerned)

[pc]

Just because they have a nice graphic with many little arrows pointing everywhere doesn't mean it's going to work better than what we have.

I'm not against experimenting either, within reasonable bounds. All I'm saying is that

a) using the DEX price for the feed is dangerous because such feedback loops tend to oscillate, and
b) there is no such thing as a "correct" feed price when external markets are skewed due to political boundaries, so it is pointless to argue about it.

[binggo]

Using the DEX price for the feed creates a feedback loop, which is inherently dangerous.

It will not be a feedback loop，if the witness only give the price from CEX, and system give the DEX price, then the feed price will
calculate by the system by the CEX price and DEX price.

and give a range of risk which will be controlled by CEX price.


and what i want to asked is if you want to change the mechanism of the feed price?

or think it's perfect？

or i think it has some problems but we didn't want do something，so be it？


USDE had finished what we discussed and wanted, so if we stand still and argument all the time and do nothing？

They have MSSR=102%，they have charge fee from the margin call，they have insurance fund，they can settle the bitasset when GS.

LOOK!!!

https://test.pizza.live/

[binggo]

Using the DEX price for the feed creates a feedback loop, which is inherently dangerous.

The real source of the problem is that the markets are skewed, and arbitrage is difficult because of political boundaries. The consequence is that there is no single "correct" price. We've had that discussion before.

IMO under these circumstances it is OK to increase the settlement offset, and perhaps also accept a higher premium by increasing MSSR. The resulting spread could cover the market differences and protect both sides.

increasing MSSR is not a good idea.

I have a idea below maybe solve some problems.

Feed price= (CEX price+DEX price)/2,  maybe clear, set two weight parameters X, Y, and one parameter Z like MSSR, these can be adjusted by committee:

if CEX price<= (X*CEX price+Y*DEX price)/2<= CEX price*Z,

then feed price=(X*CEX price+Y*DEX price)/2

if  (X*CEX price+Y*DEX price)/2 >CEX price*Z,

then feed price=CEX price*Z

if  (X*CEX price+Y*DEX price)/2<CEX price
then feed price=CEX price

[pc]

Using the DEX price for the feed creates a feedback loop, which is inherently dangerous.

The real source of the problem is that the markets are skewed, and arbitrage is difficult because of political boundaries. The consequence is that there is no single "correct" price. We've had that discussion before.

IMO under these circumstances it is OK to increase the settlement offset, and perhaps also accept a higher premium by increasing MSSR. The resulting spread could cover the market differences and protect both sides.

[binggo]

I am not sure I can follow. Obviously, people don't see arbitrage opportunity when they see it.

What is a "fair price" depends on perspective. For witnesses, the "fair price" is probably to consider markets with high volume to obtain a pricing of BTS against BTC then against CNY
The more markets there are between BTS and CNY, the more spread will be part of the "fair price".
Ideally, we get bitCNY listed on more exchanges and we get BTS listed against fiat CNY. Then witnesses can add those as source for their price feed and arbitrage will close the gab.

Blaming witnesses for inaccurate feeds is the wrong approach.

This is the design deficiency of feed price not the witness fault，the CEX price should be a reference and risk control price, real price should be the DEX price.

[xeroc]

I am not sure I can follow. Obviously, people don't see arbitrage opportunity when they see it.

What is a "fair price" depends on perspective. For witnesses, the "fair price" is probably to consider markets with high volume to obtain a pricing of BTS against BTC then against CNY
The more markets there are between BTS and CNY, the more spread will be part of the "fair price".
Ideally, we get bitCNY listed on more exchanges and we get BTS listed against fiat CNY. Then witnesses can add those as source for their price feed and arbitrage will close the gab.

Blaming witnesses for inaccurate feeds is the wrong approach.

[binggo]

I am just kiding.
there is big problem in this strategy, witness who use this strategy will lose my support.

the current price feed also have big problem, we need to find some solution for this.
otherwise, maybe we have to reset the force settlement offset back to 5%.

We need to solve the problem of the current price feed asap, it's not a "fair" price.

We need to banlance the weight of DEX price and CEX price, give more chance to the DEX, if we didn't want the Collateral to be killed by the CEX price, we must action now，the CEX price was squeezinginginginginginginging the DEX and make more margin call to squeezing.

I give you 0.4518 cny, can you buy 1 bts from binance bts/btc?!!!!!

Some project have done what we think, we just stand still and do nothing or "oh, yes, you may be right, but i don't want do it"

[binggo]

Feed price= (Median of witness feeds+DEX price)/2;

Then, your only source of information is the internal price and the external becomes irrelevant.

The median of wittness feeds is the external price, not include DEX.

The wittness can only scrape the price from these CEX, then chose the median price from these wittness feed.

Feed price= (CEX price+DEX price)/2,  maybe clear, set two weight parameters X, Y, and one parameter Z like MSSR, these can be adjusted by committee:

if CEX price<= (X*CEX price+Y*DEX price)/2<= CEX price*Z,

then feed price=(X*CEX price+Y*DEX price)/2

if  (X*CEX price+Y*DEX price)/2 >CEX price*Z,

then feed price=CEX price*Z

if  (X*CEX price+Y*DEX price)/2<CEX price
then feed price=CEX price

[xeroc]

Feed price= (Median of witness feeds+DEX price)/2;

Then, your only source of information is the internal price and the external becomes irrelevant.

[bitcrab]

I am just kiding.
there is big problem in this strategy, witness who use this strategy will lose my support.

the current price feed also have big problem, we need to find some solution for this.
otherwise, maybe we have to reset the force settlement offset back to 5%.

[binggo]

I have a thought：

Feed price= (Median of witness feeds+DEX price)/2;

Median of witness feeds<= (Median of witness feeds+DEX price)/2<= Median of witness feeds*1.02

[alt]

can't wait to change to this. you'd better update the feed price ASAP.
I will borrow enough CNY to pull the DEX's price to 10CNY/BTS or higher, when your feed price change to 10CNY/BTS, I can reduce my collactory to 1.6X, get another millions free BTS.
the big bad debt posision belongs to the system, to those who hold CNY, good thing is you have destroied the black swan, you just have a GS price protect at 10/1.6 CNY/BTS,

I suggest to take BTS/bitCNY price in DEX into important consideration, witness can firstly modify the DEX price with bitCNY premium/discount, then let this price be the bottom of feed price.

calm down bro, I just think that some witnesses can feed price like this, I am not suggesting that all witnesses should do this.

I am just kiding.
there is big problem in this strategy, witness who use this strategy will lose my support.

[bitcrab]

can't wait to change to this. you'd better update the feed price ASAP.
I will borrow enough CNY to pull the DEX's price to 10CNY/BTS or higher, when your feed price change to 10CNY/BTS, I can reduce my collactory to 1.6X, get another millions free BTS.
the big bad debt posision belongs to the system, to those who hold CNY, good thing is you have destroied the black swan, you just have a GS price protect at 10/1.6 CNY/BTS,

I suggest to take BTS/bitCNY price in DEX into important consideration, witness can firstly modify the DEX price with bitCNY premium/discount, then let this price be the bottom of feed price.

calm down bro, I just think that some witnesses can feed price like this, I am not suggesting that all witnesses should do this.

[binggo]

can't wait to change to this. you'd better update the feed price ASAP.
I will borrow enough CNY to pull the DEX's price to 10CNY/BTS or higher, when your feed price change to 10CNY/BTS, I can reduce my collactory to 1.6X, get another millions free BTS.
the big bad debt posision belongs to the system, to those who hold CNY, good thing is you have destroied the black swan, you just have a GS price protect at 10/1.6 CNY/BTS,

[alt]

can't wait to change to this. you'd better update the feed price ASAP.
I will borrow enough CNY to pull the DEX's price to 10CNY/BTS or higher, when your feed price change to 10CNY/BTS, I can reduce my collactory to 1.6X, get another millions free BTS.
the big bad debt posision belongs to the system, to those who hold CNY, good thing is you have destroied the black swan, you just have a GS price protect at 10/1.6 CNY/BTS,

I suggest to take BTS/bitCNY price in DEX into important consideration, witness can firstly modify the DEX price with bitCNY premium/discount, then let this price be the bottom of feed price.

[bitcrab]

I suggest to take BTS/bitCNY price in DEX into important consideration, witness can firstly modify the DEX price with bitCNY premium/discount, then let this price be the bottom of feed price.

[binggo]

After BSIP42 was unvoted, magicwallet just use a "medium" price for months (multi sources include BitShares blockchain). Same as clockwork, there is no USDT in any sources. In these days, as BTS price in BitShares are higher than **many** external exchanges, it seems the feed price is low. Now magicwallet changed to use a "mean" price, it is slightly higher. However, there is no perfect strategy. As many external exchanges has faked volume, the following equation may be  better:

   mean( medium price of external sources , bts price in BitShares blockchain).

For these days, the feed price seems low, but it is health in my opinion: It is a warning sign to not just use MPA( which is derived from BTS) to bring BTS up. On the other hand, it is hard to be manipulated to eat the margin call to make profit as the market price is higher.

So the wittness can use the feed price to control the market？en？so interesting.

Now i think @ljk424 said is right: Feed price is the cancer of  BTS, the feed price which was provided by people is the cancer of BTS, anthropogenic factor and politics in there.

Just like the @ljk424 said.

[pluswave]

After BSIP42 was unvoted, magicwallet just use a "medium" price for months (multi sources include BitShares blockchain). Same as clockwork, there is no USDT in any sources. In these days, as BTS price in BitShares are higher than **many** external exchanges, it seems the feed price is low. Now magicwallet changed to use a "mean" price, it is slightly higher. However, there is no perfect strategy. As many external exchanges has faked volume, the following equation may be  better:

   mean( medium price of external sources , bts price in BitShares blockchain).

For these days, the feed price seems low, but it is health in my opinion: It is a warning sign to not just use MPA( which is derived from BTS) to bring BTS up. On the other hand, it is hard to be manipulated to eat the margin call to make profit as the market price is higher.

[binggo]

Please remove the vote from gdex-wittness until he correct his feed script.

[binggo]

Pleas don't use the bitCNY premium/discount in the feed price, as have too many factors to influence the bitCNY premium/discount.

witness.hiblockchain   0.4744
gdex-witness

explain?

[clockwork]

As a possible improvement, I have just disabled the cointiger source as their high volume (and in my opinion probably fake wash trading) might be messing with my averages.

[clockwork]

fwiw, i dont use USDT pairs anywhere in my feeding

[bitcrab]

Guys, please calm down ...

Due to the use of "MEDIAN" in deriving the feed price on chain, you will **ALWAYS** .. let me repeat that: **ALWAYS**
find half the witnesses produce a price that is *above* the price feed and the other half to be *below* the price feed!!

I see, but the" MEDIAN" price is not a fair price, i don't think the price which come from the BTS/BTC price is a true fiat pirce, too many exchang and charge in there,  BTS-BTC-USDT(now6.93)-USD(6.7197)-CNY.

and i want to know what happened to the gdex-wittness, he is the highest in the last days, now he is the lowest！！！

If we can't make a professional feed price，how we can make a StableCoin？

gdex-witness is reviewing the price feed.

now I feel maybe the BTS/bitCNY price in DEX + bitCNY premium/discount got from magicwallet can result a fair price.

other ways always involve  some uncertain factors, for example, USDT is not so stable but it's not easy for the script to get how unstable it is.

[binggo]

Guys, please calm down ...

Due to the use of "MEDIAN" in deriving the feed price on chain, you will **ALWAYS** .. let me repeat that: **ALWAYS**
find half the witnesses produce a price that is *above* the price feed and the other half to be *below* the price feed!!

I see, but the" MEDIAN" price is not a fair price, i don't think the price which come from the BTS/BTC price is a true fiat pirce, too many exchang and charge in there,  BTS-BTC-USDT(now6.93)-USD(6.7197)-CNY.

and i want to know what happened to the gdex-wittness, he is the highest in the last days, now he is the lowest！！！

If we can't make a professional feed price，how we can make a StableCoin？

[xeroc]

Guys, please calm down ...

Due to the use of "MEDIAN" in deriving the feed price on chain, you will **ALWAYS** .. let me repeat that: **ALWAYS**
find half the witnesses produce a price that is *above* the price feed and the other half to be *below* the price feed!!

[binggo]

so,what's wrong with the feed price? what's wrong with the wittness?

Squeezing the market by the feed price?

DEX PRICE: 0.5

witness.yao   0.5009
zapata42-witness   0.5009
in.abit   0.4997
xeldal   0.4981
bhuz   0.498
openledger-dc   0.4978
roelandp   0.4977
delegate-zhaomu   0.4964
sahkan-bitshares   0.4936
btspp-witness   0.4931
bangzi   0.4922
witness.hiblockchain   0.4904
fox   0.4897
xn-delegate   0.4895
verbaltech2   0.4888
clockwork   0.4887
delegate-1.lafona   0.4885
magicwallet.witness   0.4877
blckchnd   0.4876
witness.still   0.4875
gdex-witness   0.4863

[bitcrab]

seems the cause is that recently USDT has a big premium, but some witnesses still calculate based on the normal USD/CNY rate.

[xeroc]

Its also the proxies responsibility to appreciate those witnesses that do a good job and unvote those that don't.

with that said, i am sorry i do not keep up to date sufficiently, but i have started work on an automated script to track and act on witness responsibilities ..

[bitcrab]

I do not agree with the tone of the author, but some witnesses really did bad job in price feeding.

I am not referring to any specific witness, it's a generally speaking.

recently, I always feel that the market BTS/bitCNY price is a more exact BTS/CNY price than the feed price.

see below picture, market price is 2% higher than feed price, naturally you may think, does bitCNY has a 2% discount?



No. at the time bitCNY still have a premium of about 0.5%.

you may say that witnesses need time to response, so there's always delay when the market price change rapidly.

but what I see is that some witnesses do not update the price after 2+ hours or even 10+ hours even when the last feed price is 2% apart the market price.

I feel fortunate that months ago I disagreed to reduce the force settlement offset of bitCNY back to 1%, if it is 1% now it will provide chances for  speculators to exploit debt position owners!

I feel in the future we need to make a candle chart and put feed price of each witness inside for users to evaluate how exact the feed price is.

witnesses need to take the responsibility, it's important to the whole ecosystem, if you do not like the job, just leave and let others do.   

[ljk424]

The feeding price you offer is extremely abnormal.You did bad job.

[xeroc]

fox、clockwork、blckchnd、elmato、crazybit、bangzi、magicwallt   all ugly witness
cancer of the BTS

Change your tone or risk a temporary forum ban.

[ljk424]

fox、clockwork、blckchnd、elmato、crazybit、bangzi、magicwallt   all ugly witness
cancer of the BTS

[ljk424]

这是现价！

这是喂价！

[binggo]

You have been submitting very low feed prices.Is it not for shorting the market?

hardly low... within 1% of median.

Yes, CNC and QC pairs are slightly higher but not by much. And other sources are lower. I feed what I feel is fair.

That's the thing about medians, some will be lower/some will be higher.

And no , I don't short the market... I don't really trade at all.

You can call me a cancer if my feed was 5-10% lower.

I don't appreciate the insults due to a 1% variance

Code: [Select]

witness.yao 0.4113 0.4936 1.75 1.02 46秒钟前
roelandp 0.4092 0.4910 1.75 1.02 1分钟前
delegate-zhaomu 0.4108 0.4930 1.75 1.02 1分钟前
crazybit 0.4061 0.5076 1.75 1.02 1分钟前
gdex-witness 0.4130 0.5450 1.75 1.02 2分钟前
witness.hiblockchain 0.4093 0.4912 1.75 1.02 4分钟前
magicwallet.witness 0.4044 0.4853 1.75 1.02 4分钟前
clockwork 0.4054 0.4865 1.75 1.02 5分钟前
verbaltech2 0.4072 0.5090 1.75 1.02 5分钟前
fox 0.4039 0.4847 1.75 1.02 6分钟前
witness.still 0.4083 0.5103 1.75 1.02 6分钟前
zapata42-witness 0.4117 0.4941 1.75 1.02 6分钟前
xn-delegate 0.4059 0.4871 1.75 1.02 6分钟前
bhuz 0.4110 0.4326 1.75 1.02 6分钟前
delegate-1.lafona 0.4092 0.4910 1.75 1.02 6分钟前
elmato 0.4053 0.4256 1.75 1.1 6分钟前
btspp-witness 0.4104 0.4925 1.75 1.02 10分钟前
openledger-dc 0.4093 0.4916 1.75 1.02 15分钟前
sahkan-bitshares 0.4051 0.4861 1.75 1.02 26分钟前
in.abit 0.4096 0.5251 1.75 1.02 29分钟前
blckchnd 0.4019 0.4822 1.75 1.05 36分钟前
xeldal 0.4078 0.4893 1.75 1.02 59分钟前
bangzi 0.4084 0.4901 1.75 1.02 1小时前
I don't think low outside 1% of median is a fair price, especially low，0.4084 i can understand how it come, but i don't understand 0.4039.

up slow, down quickly.

and what's up with these two guys?

blckchnd   1.75  1.05  
elmato      1.75  1.1 

[Thul3]

I consider myself clockwork also as one of the best and most supportive witness we have.

[clockwork]

You have been submitting very low feed prices.Is it not for shorting the market?

hardly low... within 1% of median.

Yes, CNC and QC pairs are slightly higher but not by much. And other sources are lower. I feed what I feel is fair.

That's the thing about medians, some will be lower/some will be higher.

And no , I don't short the market... I don't really trade at all.

You can call me a cancer if my feed was 5-10% lower.

I don't appreciate the insults due to a 1% variance

[matle85]

Clockwork is pretty consistently one of the hardest working and most legitimate witnesses in my view so if others feeds are matching with his I don't have any concern.

There is always a bit of a lag.

You could start a witness yourself and secure support for your new algorithms which give what you believe is a more accurate price?

[ljk424]

blckchnd                           0.3884    1.75  1.05   
elmato                           0.3867    1.75  1.1 

[ljk424]

You don't care about the market value of BTS.Just to short the market, greedily plunder others’ chips

[ljk424]

You have been submitting very low feed prices.Is it not for shorting the market?

[clockwork]

are you kidding?

magicwallet.witness   0.3850    1.75   1.02   
clockwork                   0.3888    1.75   1.02   
crazybit                           0.3882    1.75   1.02   
blckchnd                           0.3884    1.75   1.05   
elmato                           0.3867    1.75   1.1   
sahkan-bitshares           0.3887    1.75   1.02

when bts 0.4 bitcny

what is wrong with those feeds exactly?

[ljk424]

are you kidding?

magicwallet.witness   0.3850    1.75   1.02   
clockwork                   0.3888    1.75   1.02   
crazybit                           0.3882    1.75   1.02   
blckchnd                           0.3884    1.75   1.05   
elmato                           0.3867    1.75   1.1   
sahkan-bitshares           0.3887    1.75   1.02

when bts 0.4 bitcny

[ljk424]

are you kidding?

magicwallet.witness   0.3850    1.75   1.02   
clockwork                   0.3888    1.75   1.02   
crazybit                           0.3882    1.75   1.02   
blckchnd                           0.3884    1.75   1.05   
elmato                           0.3867    1.75   1.1   
sahkan-bitshares           0.3887    1.75   1.02   

[ljk424]

fox、clockwork、blckchnd、elmato、crazybit、bangzi、magicwallt   all ugly witness
they are The cancer of the BTS world