Author Topic: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6  (Read 1660 times)

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Offline bitcrab

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[Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« on: March 27, 2019, 01:18:55 pm »
Bitshares Core Release 3.0.0 fixed the MCR bug, the protocol update will happen at 23 APR 2019 14:02 UTC.

https://github.com/bitshares/bitshares-core/releases/tag/3.0.0

Based on BSIP59, https://github.com/bitshares/bsips/blob/master/bsip-0059.md, now 2 poll worker proposals have been created:

1.14.174   Poll - BSIP59 - Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
1.14.175   Poll - BSIP59 - Do Not Reduce MCR of bitCNY

Select 1.6 to vote base on following consideration:

1.bitCNY is still in obvious shortage and premium. a lower MCR will help to encourage supply and lessen the shorting power.
2.in community discussion, especially in Chinese community, 1.6 is a value that get most support.
3.as a reference, Maker DAI has a corresponding parameter and the current value is 1.5, to be cautious, to go to 1.6 at the first step is a better choice.

If the for worker finally win, the MCR will be modified only after the protocol update succeed.

Please vote according to your opinion.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 01:39:49 pm by bitcrab »

Offline xeroc

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2019, 08:47:18 am »
I would like to hear the witnesses' thoughts on this. Ultimately, its their job
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Online clockwork

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2019, 09:32:16 am »
I would like to hear the witnesses' thoughts on this. Ultimately, its their job

personally i thought the WHOLE idea of the MCR fix was so that witnesses could set it as they see fit (not that I know how mind you...i gave a suggestion once but dont think others gave it much thought)

if we change it simultaneously by agreement at a specified time, it kinda defeats the purpose of the bug fix

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2019, 09:48:21 am »
Stable coins no longer become stable if witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour. Investors will feel very unsecure because the coin become very uncertain.

Thus I prefer the community propose BSIP to change MCR/MSSR, committee members announce it once it voted it and then witnesses implement it.

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Offline lin5464

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2019, 09:59:19 am »
Stable coins no longer become stable if witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour. Investors will feel very unsecure because the coin become very uncertain.

Thus I prefer the community propose BSIP to change MCR/MSSR, committee members announce it once it voted it and then witnesses implement it.
Agree with that.

Online binggo

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2019, 10:24:06 am »
Stable coins no longer become stable if witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour. Investors will feel very unsecure because the coin become very uncertain.

Thus I prefer the community propose BSIP to change MCR/MSSR, committee members announce it once it voted it and then witnesses implement it.
Agree with that.
Agree with that.

witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour which like BSIP42, we have learned a lesson from BSIP 42.

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2019, 10:25:07 am »
Stable coins no longer become stable if witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour. Investors will feel very unsecure because the coin become very uncertain.

Thus I prefer the community propose BSIP to change MCR/MSSR, committee members announce it once it voted it and then witnesses implement it.

this is what I think, if MCR/MSSR change frequently, it will bring much trouble/uncertainty to traders/smartcoin users on estimating the risk and making decision.

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2019, 11:07:43 am »
Stable coins no longer become stable if witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour. Investors will feel very unsecure because the coin become very uncertain.

Thus I prefer the community propose BSIP to change MCR/MSSR, committee members announce it once it voted it and then witnesses implement it.
Agree with that.
Agree with that.

witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour which like BSIP42, we have learned a lesson from BSIP 42.

BSIP42 (which left MCR/MSSR unchanged and relied on a "fake" price) was a different story altogether.

I agree that changing MCR/MSSR often makes it hard to evaluate risk but at the same time , it's the ONLY way to fight discount/premium.

We need to come up with a framework for it. Relying on BSIPs for every change HARDLY makes a difference as market changes much faster and could potentially leave us in a much worse state if market circumstances change quickly and MCR has gone low.

My suggestion originally was to allow witnesses to feed MCR/MSSR based on market conditions within a specified range. Thus if you stayed above that range you would always know where you stand (same as keeping your CR above 1.75 now).


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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2019, 11:17:43 am »
Stable coins no longer become stable if witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour. Investors will feel very unsecure because the coin become very uncertain.

Thus I prefer the community propose BSIP to change MCR/MSSR, committee members announce it once it voted it and then witnesses implement it.
Agree with that.
Agree with that.

witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour which like BSIP42, we have learned a lesson from BSIP 42.

BSIP42 (which left MCR/MSSR unchanged and relied on a "fake" price) was a different story altogether.

I agree that changing MCR/MSSR often makes it hard to evaluate risk but at the same time , it's the ONLY way to fight discount/premium.

We need to come up with a framework for it. Relying on BSIPs for every change HARDLY makes a difference as market changes much faster and could potentially leave us in a much worse state if market circumstances change quickly and MCR has gone low.

My suggestion originally was to allow witnesses to feed MCR/MSSR based on market conditions within a specified range. Thus if you stayed above that range you would always know where you stand (same as keeping your CR above 1.75 now).

Link to that very rough first implementation idea: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=27360.msg324958#msg324958

Online binggo

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2019, 11:56:29 am »
Quote
BSIP42 (which left MCR/MSSR unchanged and relied on a "fake" price) was a different story altogether.

I agree that changing MCR/MSSR often makes it hard to evaluate risk but at the same time , it's the ONLY way to fight discount/premium.

They were a same story, and you will find it out finally. We have talk about these in Chinese forum, they are same, BSIP42  not changed the feed price only, it also changed the MCR/MSSR from another point of view.

So changing MCR/MSSR often is another BSIP42, no different, and only MSSR affects premium a bit.

Let the Force Settlement offset change as the CR, it a way.


« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 11:59:22 am by binggo »

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2019, 01:03:25 pm »
Quote
BSIP42 (which left MCR/MSSR unchanged and relied on a "fake" price) was a different story altogether.

I agree that changing MCR/MSSR often makes it hard to evaluate risk but at the same time , it's the ONLY way to fight discount/premium.

They were a same story, and you will find it out finally. We have talk about these in Chinese forum, they are same, BSIP42  not changed the feed price only, it also changed the MCR/MSSR from another point of view.

So changing MCR/MSSR often is another BSIP42, no different, and only MSSR affects premium a bit.

Let the Force Settlement offset change as the CR, it a way.

I know the end effect was almost the same. That's why we adopted that solution in the first place since we couldn't mess with MCR/MSSR directly.

My point about BSIP42 being a different story had to do with the way it was applied and the extremely slow response to trend changes


Online binggo

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2019, 01:19:22 pm »
Quote
BSIP42 (which left MCR/MSSR unchanged and relied on a "fake" price) was a different story altogether.

I agree that changing MCR/MSSR often makes it hard to evaluate risk but at the same time , it's the ONLY way to fight discount/premium.

They were a same story, and you will find it out finally. We have talk about these in Chinese forum, they are same, BSIP42  not changed the feed price only, it also changed the MCR/MSSR from another point of view.

So changing MCR/MSSR often is another BSIP42, no different, and only MSSR affects premium a bit.

Let the Force Settlement offset change as the CR, it a way.

I know the end effect was almost the same. That's why we adopted that solution in the first place since we couldn't mess with MCR/MSSR directly.

My point about BSIP42 being a different story had to do with the way it was applied and the extremely slow response to trend changes

I don't think the wittness have the ability to do this, they are not the economist, they have poor showing in the BSIP42.

Just like said" Stable coins no longer become stable if witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour."

If the futures market change the MCR/MSSR often, what will happen?

Don't focus on the MCR, let's check the Force Settlement offset, let it change as the CR, will a better way.

Leave the wittness alone, let they do what they should do,to feed a fair feed price is a very hard work already for them.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 01:30:17 pm by binggo »

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2019, 01:39:53 pm »
Quote
BSIP42 (which left MCR/MSSR unchanged and relied on a "fake" price) was a different story altogether.

I agree that changing MCR/MSSR often makes it hard to evaluate risk but at the same time , it's the ONLY way to fight discount/premium.

They were a same story, and you will find it out finally. We have talk about these in Chinese forum, they are same, BSIP42  not changed the feed price only, it also changed the MCR/MSSR from another point of view.

So changing MCR/MSSR often is another BSIP42, no different, and only MSSR affects premium a bit.

Let the Force Settlement offset change as the CR, it a way.

I know the end effect was almost the same. That's why we adopted that solution in the first place since we couldn't mess with MCR/MSSR directly.

My point about BSIP42 being a different story had to do with the way it was applied and the extremely slow response to trend changes

I don't think the wittness have the ability to do this, they are not the economist, they have poor showing in the BSIP42.

Just like said" Stable coins no longer become stable if witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour."

If the futures market change the MCR/MSSR often, what will happen?

Don't focus on the MCR, let's check the Force Settlement offset, let it change as the CR, will a better way.

a) Dont even try and blame BSIP42 on the witnesses. It was forced upon them via BSIP, same way this MCR BSIP is about to be
b) Actually, a continuously variable MCR/MSSR is EXACTLY what would keep them extremely stable (let's ignore the maths behind it for a moment and whether witnesses are up to the task or not)...fact of the matter is that you can't keep it stable with FIXED params...it needs to follow the market)
c) Futures market is a different story altogether... Even those however actually evaluate variation margin daily (and this is in a much more controlled and less volatile environment than crypto) and move funds between the 2 sides

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2019, 02:26:22 pm »
In my view, allowing witnesses to adjust MCR/MSSR freely is dangerous.

as reference, Maker DAI has a key parameter called intereste rate, it's their way to ensure the peg of DAI, as I know, adjusting of the rate is also done by a committee with voting, and do not happen frequently, normally once several months.

another reference is how frequently Fedral Reserve adjust interest rate.

we really need to change MCR/MSSR, but do not need to change them every day.

and we also have another parameter-force settlement offset, taking bitCNY as an example, the 2% force settlement offset can limit the bitCNY discount to be less than 2%, if we reduce MCR and MSSR to a enough low level, it can limit the premium under a value like 2%, it's a +-2% gap peg, fairly well, and we can surely refine the 3 parameters to make the gap even less.

frequently changing input not always lead to stable output, sometimes it may lead to unstable output.

and it's not a good idea to ask the witnesses to play the role of economists, smartcoin ecosystem should not be a game field.

Online binggo

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MCR of bitCNY to 1.6
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2019, 02:36:04 pm »
Quote
BSIP42 (which left MCR/MSSR unchanged and relied on a "fake" price) was a different story altogether.

I agree that changing MCR/MSSR often makes it hard to evaluate risk but at the same time , it's the ONLY way to fight discount/premium.

They were a same story, and you will find it out finally. We have talk about these in Chinese forum, they are same, BSIP42  not changed the feed price only, it also changed the MCR/MSSR from another point of view.

So changing MCR/MSSR often is another BSIP42, no different, and only MSSR affects premium a bit.

Let the Force Settlement offset change as the CR, it a way.

I know the end effect was almost the same. That's why we adopted that solution in the first place since we couldn't mess with MCR/MSSR directly.

My point about BSIP42 being a different story had to do with the way it was applied and the extremely slow response to trend changes

I don't think the wittness have the ability to do this, they are not the economist, they have poor showing in the BSIP42.

Just like said" Stable coins no longer become stable if witnesses change MCR/MSSR every minute or every hour."

If the futures market change the MCR/MSSR often, what will happen?

Don't focus on the MCR, let's check the Force Settlement offset, let it change as the CR, will a better way.

a) Dont even try and blame BSIP42 on the witnesses. It was forced upon them via BSIP, same way this MCR BSIP is about to be
b) Actually, a continuously variable MCR/MSSR is EXACTLY what would keep them extremely stable (let's ignore the maths behind it for a moment and whether witnesses are up to the task or not)...fact of the matter is that you can't keep it stable with FIXED params...it needs to follow the market)
c) Futures market is a different story altogether... Even those however actually evaluate variation margin daily (and this is in a much more controlled and less volatile environment than crypto) and move funds between the 2 sides

The wittnesses have a great deal of freedom in the BSIP 42, they can perform more professional.
i and some people have point out the problem asap, and can revise via BSIP 42,but no one want to discuss,espacally have so many chinese wittness,so what happen?

A continuously variable MCR/MSSR is the worest idea i think, and never keep the stablecoin extremely stable, just will let the market more worse and will less people will come in as the rule will not be a rule.

No coin can stable, eg. dollor, gold, oil, BTC...   stablecoin just extremely stable to itself, everyone want to control the exchange will be fail,so if we want the amateur wittness to control the exchange and to act as the Fed?en... :(

I don't want the wittness to disupt the market too much and too deep, they will be not only the players but also the referee, it will be very worse, it is centralization, not decentralization.

Futures market and the collateral, there isn't really much of a difference between them.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 02:38:28 pm by binggo »