Author Topic: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS  (Read 9173 times)

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Offline Darkbane

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2014, 03:15:41 am »
what would be the worst case / consequences in this respect (legal issues developing in a negative way)?

the worst case scenario is someone files a lawsuit against them for fraud, misrepresentation, or legal claim to assets of the company because of how this whole scenario has been handled... then all the "donations" from AGS/PTS people become part of the lawsuit and awarded as a judgement to those who sued (well whats left of it)... all it takes is one disgruntled person willing to take a step with a lawyer hungry enough to realize, they've got millions, and the lawyer will profit millions... thats generally all it takes, they can paint a picture of how "its different", however legally the court system follows printed law, not "how it should be" law... and that is what worries me... instead of getting things in order, they intend to jump in feet first and hope they don't hit a rock in the water... money has a way of putting blinders on people...

best case scenario, things go well and everything comes true...

reality of it, will probably be a mix of these two...

the big question being, how much of each and who loses more...

Offline jas

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2014, 03:37:00 am »
Do you want to get out this terrible future legal position by selling me all your shares now?
Hi Mom! Send PTS: PbqJY6ZLocF9wxnjr4jWaoWgiw8CT85P

Offline Darkbane

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2014, 03:56:59 am »
Do you want to get out this terrible future legal position by selling me all your shares now?

What I want is what they say they are offering, except I want it done in a way that legally protects our interests...

Offline Troglodactyl

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2014, 03:58:17 am »
what would be the worst case / consequences in this respect (legal issues developing in a negative way)?

Possible worst case scenario: The entire Invictus team is burnt at the stake for speaking freely.  All related crypto assets are demanded to be sent in as settlement.  A bunch of strange people with funny accents fork all the chains from the point before the settlement demand and take over the project.

Offline Markus

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2014, 05:00:55 am »
what would be the worst case / consequences in this respect (legal issues developing in a negative way)?

the worst case scenario is someone files a lawsuit against them for fraud, misrepresentation, or legal claim to assets of the company because of how this whole scenario has been handled... then all the "donations" from AGS/PTS people become part of the lawsuit and awarded as a judgement to those who sued (well whats left of it)... all it takes is one disgruntled person willing to take a step with a lawyer hungry enough to realize, they've got millions, and the lawyer will profit millions... thats generally all it takes, they can paint a picture of how "its different", however legally the court system follows printed law, not "how it should be" law... and that is what worries me... instead of getting things in order, they intend to jump in feet first and hope they don't hit a rock in the water... money has a way of putting blinders on people...

best case scenario, things go well and everything comes true...

reality of it, will probably be a mix of these two...

the big question being, how much of each and who loses more...

Worst case here: Uncle Sam (or one of his lawyers) seizes the Angel fund. Then we are there where Counterparty is now. AGS just becomes proof-of-burn - which seems to work just as well :)

Offline onceuponatime

Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2014, 05:21:22 am »
what would be the worst case / consequences in this respect (legal issues developing in a negative way)?

the worst case scenario is someone files a lawsuit against them for fraud, misrepresentation, or legal claim to assets of the company because of how this whole scenario has been handled... then all the "donations" from AGS/PTS people become part of the lawsuit and awarded as a judgement to those who sued (well whats left of it)... all it takes is one disgruntled person willing to take a step with a lawyer hungry enough to realize, they've got millions, and the lawyer will profit millions... thats generally all it takes, they can paint a picture of how "its different", however legally the court system follows printed law, not "how it should be" law... and that is what worries me... instead of getting things in order, they intend to jump in feet first and hope they don't hit a rock in the water... money has a way of putting blinders on people...

best case scenario, things go well and everything comes true...

reality of it, will probably be a mix of these two...

the big question being, how much of each and who loses more...

Worst case here: Uncle Sam (or one of his lawyers) seizes the Angel fund. Then we are there where Counterparty is now. AGS just becomes proof-of-burn - which seems to work just as well :)

Isn't the Angel Fund held in PTS and BTC? Hopefully mostly in cold storage? How is Uncle Anybody going to seize anything?

Offline Stan

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2014, 05:32:18 am »
Misquote of the Day:

Quote
Doc Brown: I foresee two possibilities.

One:  The governments of the world could agree to disband peacefully...

Or two: the encounter could create an economic paradox, the result of which could cause a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of the space-time continuum and destroy the entire universe!   Granted, that's a worst-case scenario. The destruction might in fact be very localized, limited to merely our own galaxy.

Marty: Well, that's a relief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKqd27h7KjM
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 05:34:21 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Darkbane

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2014, 06:19:22 pm »
what would be the worst case / consequences in this respect (legal issues developing in a negative way)?

the worst case scenario is someone files a lawsuit against them for fraud, misrepresentation, or legal claim to assets of the company because of how this whole scenario has been handled... then all the "donations" from AGS/PTS people become part of the lawsuit and awarded as a judgement to those who sued (well whats left of it)... all it takes is one disgruntled person willing to take a step with a lawyer hungry enough to realize, they've got millions, and the lawyer will profit millions... thats generally all it takes, they can paint a picture of how "its different", however legally the court system follows printed law, not "how it should be" law... and that is what worries me... instead of getting things in order, they intend to jump in feet first and hope they don't hit a rock in the water... money has a way of putting blinders on people...

best case scenario, things go well and everything comes true...

reality of it, will probably be a mix of these two...

the big question being, how much of each and who loses more...

Worst case here: Uncle Sam (or one of his lawyers) seizes the Angel fund. Then we are there where Counterparty is now. AGS just becomes proof-of-burn - which seems to work just as well :)

Isn't the Angel Fund held in PTS and BTC? Hopefully mostly in cold storage? How is Uncle Anybody going to seize anything?

to answer your question about how can anyone seize anything...

http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-releases/2013/manhattan-u.s.-attorney-announces-seizure-of-additional-28-million-worth-of-bitcoins-belonging-to-ross-william-ulbricht-alleged-owner-and-operator-of-silk-road-website

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/10635359/Drugs-guns-and-assassination-Silk-Road-successor-Utopia-shut-down-by-police.html

the US government seized control of millions of accounts and dollars... or has everyone forgotten this back from early 2013... there are dozens of more examples as criminals move, so does the justice department... they've sized bitcoins from many people... including this guy below trying to sue to get them back before they sell the seized asset... (and its not just america, its every government around the nation seizing them)

http://www.coindesk.com/silk-road-seller-sues-stop-government-sale/

now this is not to imply PTS/AGS have a drug problem... I'm just showing its extremely easy to seize bitcoins... so they can be taken away and sold off by the government...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 06:21:08 pm by Darkbane »

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2014, 06:34:21 pm »

Offline jae208

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2014, 10:07:12 am »
what would be the worst case / consequences in this respect (legal issues developing in a negative way)?

the worst case scenario is someone files a lawsuit against them for fraud, misrepresentation, or legal claim to assets of the company because of how this whole scenario has been handled... then all the "donations" from AGS/PTS people become part of the lawsuit and awarded as a judgement to those who sued (well whats left of it)... all it takes is one disgruntled person willing to take a step with a lawyer hungry enough to realize, they've got millions, and the lawyer will profit millions... thats generally all it takes, they can paint a picture of how "its different", however legally the court system follows printed law, not "how it should be" law... and that is what worries me... instead of getting things in order, they intend to jump in feet first and hope they don't hit a rock in the water... money has a way of putting blinders on people...

best case scenario, things go well and everything comes true...

reality of it, will probably be a mix of these two...

the big question being, how much of each and who loses more...

Worst case here: Uncle Sam (or one of his lawyers) seizes the Angel fund. Then we are there where Counterparty is now. AGS just becomes proof-of-burn - which seems to work just as well :)

Isn't the Angel Fund held in PTS and BTC? Hopefully mostly in cold storage? How is Uncle Anybody going to seize anything?

to answer your question about how can anyone seize anything...

http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-releases/2013/manhattan-u.s.-attorney-announces-seizure-of-additional-28-million-worth-of-bitcoins-belonging-to-ross-william-ulbricht-alleged-owner-and-operator-of-silk-road-website

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/10635359/Drugs-guns-and-assassination-Silk-Road-successor-Utopia-shut-down-by-police.html

the US government seized control of millions of accounts and dollars... or has everyone forgotten this back from early 2013... there are dozens of more examples as criminals move, so does the justice department... they've sized bitcoins from many people... including this guy below trying to sue to get them back before they sell the seized asset... (and its not just america, its every government around the nation seizing them)

http://www.coindesk.com/silk-road-seller-sues-stop-government-sale/

now this is not to imply PTS/AGS have a drug problem... I'm just showing its extremely easy to seize bitcoins... so they can be taken away and sold off by the government...

I think you are over reacting a bit. The government isn't as powerful as you imply that it is. The thing with cryptocurrencies and cryptoequities is that if you take the proper precautions to protect your cryptowealth it is virtually impossible for them to seize anything. We can all learn something from SilkRoad and that is that if you don't take the proper precautions the government can in theory confiscate your cryptowealth.

However, what if your cryptowealth was not stored on your computer at home? What if someone created a DAC whose sole purpose is to ensure the security of your cryptowealth? What if your private key for your millions in cryptowealth were stored somewhere in cyberspace that only YOU knew about? This isn't like stacks of hundred dollar bills that require large amounts of energy and space to move and hide. You can literally store millions of dollars worth of cryptowealth in a few megabytes worth of data.

As far as the legal aspect goes have you forgotten that government derives its power from the consent of the governed, at least that is the way it should be. Technological innovation and the adoption of technology is exponential in nature and governments are way to slow and inefficient to do anything to stop it or slow it down. Do you think that the new class of millionaires and billionaires that this technology creates will simply not put up a fight? I believe that the adoption of this cryptocurrency and cryptoequity technology will be faster than anything that has been done before. Think about this, it took Facebook about 10 years to reach 1 Billion users or roughly half of the internet users online worldwide as of today and the vast majority of people don't use Facebook to make money as Facebook is the one that makes money from our information. Now, here we will have a technology whose fundamental purpose is profit. I think that the whole crypocurrency/cryptoequity industry will reach 1 Billion users faster than Facebook did simply because there will be a little bit of profit for everybody out there.

Believe me these people with a vested interest to protect their cryptowealth will do everything in their power to protect themselves including using their fortunes to change the law and so what used to be illegal will then be legal.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 10:11:58 am by jae208 »
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Offline Darkbane

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2014, 05:14:07 am »
what would be the worst case / consequences in this respect (legal issues developing in a negative way)?

the worst case scenario is someone files a lawsuit against them for fraud, misrepresentation, or legal claim to assets of the company because of how this whole scenario has been handled... then all the "donations" from AGS/PTS people become part of the lawsuit and awarded as a judgement to those who sued (well whats left of it)... all it takes is one disgruntled person willing to take a step with a lawyer hungry enough to realize, they've got millions, and the lawyer will profit millions... thats generally all it takes, they can paint a picture of how "its different", however legally the court system follows printed law, not "how it should be" law... and that is what worries me... instead of getting things in order, they intend to jump in feet first and hope they don't hit a rock in the water... money has a way of putting blinders on people...

best case scenario, things go well and everything comes true...

reality of it, will probably be a mix of these two...

the big question being, how much of each and who loses more...

Worst case here: Uncle Sam (or one of his lawyers) seizes the Angel fund. Then we are there where Counterparty is now. AGS just becomes proof-of-burn - which seems to work just as well :)

Isn't the Angel Fund held in PTS and BTC? Hopefully mostly in cold storage? How is Uncle Anybody going to seize anything?

to answer your question about how can anyone seize anything...

http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-releases/2013/manhattan-u.s.-attorney-announces-seizure-of-additional-28-million-worth-of-bitcoins-belonging-to-ross-william-ulbricht-alleged-owner-and-operator-of-silk-road-website

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/10635359/Drugs-guns-and-assassination-Silk-Road-successor-Utopia-shut-down-by-police.html

the US government seized control of millions of accounts and dollars... or has everyone forgotten this back from early 2013... there are dozens of more examples as criminals move, so does the justice department... they've sized bitcoins from many people... including this guy below trying to sue to get them back before they sell the seized asset... (and its not just america, its every government around the nation seizing them)

http://www.coindesk.com/silk-road-seller-sues-stop-government-sale/

now this is not to imply PTS/AGS have a drug problem... I'm just showing its extremely easy to seize bitcoins... so they can be taken away and sold off by the government...

I think you are over reacting a bit. The government isn't as powerful as you imply that it is. The thing with cryptocurrencies and cryptoequities is that if you take the proper precautions to protect your cryptowealth it is virtually impossible for them to seize anything. We can all learn something from SilkRoad and that is that if you don't take the proper precautions the government can in theory confiscate your cryptowealth.

However, what if your cryptowealth was not stored on your computer at home? What if someone created a DAC whose sole purpose is to ensure the security of your cryptowealth? What if your private key for your millions in cryptowealth were stored somewhere in cyberspace that only YOU knew about? This isn't like stacks of hundred dollar bills that require large amounts of energy and space to move and hide. You can literally store millions of dollars worth of cryptowealth in a few megabytes worth of data.

As far as the legal aspect goes have you forgotten that government derives its power from the consent of the governed, at least that is the way it should be. Technological innovation and the adoption of technology is exponential in nature and governments are way to slow and inefficient to do anything to stop it or slow it down. Do you think that the new class of millionaires and billionaires that this technology creates will simply not put up a fight? I believe that the adoption of this cryptocurrency and cryptoequity technology will be faster than anything that has been done before. Think about this, it took Facebook about 10 years to reach 1 Billion users or roughly half of the internet users online worldwide as of today and the vast majority of people don't use Facebook to make money as Facebook is the one that makes money from our information. Now, here we will have a technology whose fundamental purpose is profit. I think that the whole crypocurrency/cryptoequity industry will reach 1 Billion users faster than Facebook did simply because there will be a little bit of profit for everybody out there.

Believe me these people with a vested interest to protect their cryptowealth will do everything in their power to protect themselves including using their fortunes to change the law and so what used to be illegal will then be legal.

I think you're over estimating the power of a couple percent of americans doing this... and the other 95% who are not... as well as the legal foundation all laws are built on already has a regulatory process to cover many actions invictus has already done as a business in america... they've already changed the rules of the game mid-stream... they've used verbiage thats greatly opened them up to legal action... its good to see you are optimistic and think things can magically be shielded... however they can't undo the changes they've made and the wording used while making it... thats the whole issue! that alone puts everything in jeopardy and you can't erase it...

they SHOULD have been a non-profit legally registered from day ONE... they SHOULD have had VERY clear and concise methods on every step of the way... remember there was no AGS not too long ago, they changed that whole model... now change itself is not bad, but when they've made obligations through their own words and modify that, they can be held accountable for it... then the mixing of words over what AGS even is, adds more doors opened in other aspects... and this is without ANY new legislation being passed in dozens of states, this is just current laws on the books on how a business must operate, and every one of the 50 states has variations in what companies must do to comply... and clearly they have admitted in not so many words, they should have done things different...

now making a comparison to silkroad I will admit is a different scenario... one was intentional fraud obviously being commited by them... this would be unintentional and just a sheer lack of business knowledge to comply with regulations in all 50 states... however that does not excuse the possible penalties imposed by the state, or individuals who seek compensation... and they have made very clear mistakes... which can not be undone... which puts this whole grand social experiment at risk... which is our money... we deserve to be protected and they should take the proper steps... however their focis is pushing this as hard and fast as they can software wise, while ignoring the glaring red legal matters as a backburner issue they'll worry about if it arises... thats a horrendous business decision that could cost all of us at no fault of our own, everything we've done...

its not unreasonable to expect them to take as much care in legal protection as they would about say software security... without legal matters addressed, nothing else will matter how good it is because it will come to an end... and all this promised backing disappears in a heartbeat... which is a great cost to us...

Offline TsonicTsunami

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2014, 07:25:22 am »
I have read a number of these threads with great interest as I hold PTS and now AGS. I think the gov't is going to come after the whole industry at some point. I'll admit the roll out of this venture has been a bit unusual as Adam Levine has pointed out. I think (THINK) Invictus is aware that these challenges will come and they are assembling a legal team to advise.
This is all new territory and think because things are moving so rapidly you may have to put the cart before the horse.I am in this investment / donation/ lottery and we are going to see what happens. If you analyzed all the what if's you would never make a move and now is the time for bold action as fate will not reward the timid.

I appreciate Darkbane and his tenacious quest for information,his concerns are valid. This thing is about to launch and once it's out there is no calling it back in, autonomous. Other players have cancelled their fund raising because of legal concerns I'm sure. The die is cast and now we wait and see how this thing unfolds.
I also appreciate Invictus for having the courage to leave these threads unedited as far as I can tell. I have had the experience on other crypto forums of having my posts deleted because I had concerns and challenged the direction things were going.
Emotions are high as are expectations, the immediate future will be rife with obstacles and small victories. We are in uncharted waters folks and we are going to bump some reefs. Weather we ride the tide or sink to the bottom only time will tell, I hope all enjoy the voyage!

Offline bytemaster

Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2014, 07:42:37 am »
Darkbane...  you have made your points and like you said past actions simply are what they are. 

We are focused on fixing any mistakes made as rapidly as possible and working with some of the best lawyers in the field to put things on solid footing. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Darkbane

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2014, 05:21:05 pm »
Darkbane...  you have made your points and like you said past actions simply are what they are. 

We are focused on fixing any mistakes made as rapidly as possible and working with some of the best lawyers in the field to put things on solid footing.

and as part of the community I would appreciate some steps also being made to handle other concerns... such as a public decree stating invictus and its employees/shareholders will not purchase pts/ags before and/or 72 hours after they make announcements on DAC's or other information that may affect value of of it... I think its only fair to expect them to not use information only they are privy to for making good buys early before its released to the general public... I think something like this would go along way in a social consensus...  people underestimate your ability to use that information and get in before we're able to get in... and since invictus claims this is for the community and not for their for-profit business, that would calm a lot of speculation since we can track blocks and see who transfer what, albeit with some ability to hide transactions in unknown ID's... (not to mention insider trading laws as this is slowly being transformed into currency on the bitsharesX description page, and subject to FTC rules at that point by transitioning it into currency, despite the fact when used in other forms its simple a commodity)

otherwise using "donated" money to build up hype to raise awareness, to buy in before you do such, could make us all quite vulnerable since we're not sitting there listening to the plan of attack so to speak... so malicious things could occur which is why the company needs to divorce itself from investing in its own products, assuming these products are for the community and not for invictus... invictus said it would publish all transactions, so I assume this includes purchasing PTS, since they said they would not use any money to purchase AGS?

I acknowledge the website has recently changed to I assume handle issues raised, so while I think this is a good start, if they plan to become a true non-profit (if they choose) that will be a huge step, but until then I think having a single announcement source off the main website page, along with a statement the company and employees will not trade on information released prior or after for a period of time would go a long way... its just a huge conflict of interest to be trading in it at all...
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 05:25:19 pm by Darkbane »

Offline santaclause102

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Re: 1 AGS worth more than 1 PTS
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2014, 06:18:35 pm »
Darkbane...  you have made your points and like you said past actions simply are what they are. 

We are focused on fixing any mistakes made as rapidly as possible and working with some of the best lawyers in the field to put things on solid footing.

and as part of the community I would appreciate some steps also being made to handle other concerns... such as a public decree stating invictus and its employees/shareholders will not purchase pts/ags before and/or 72 hours after they make announcements on DAC's or other information that may affect value of of it... I think its only fair to expect them to not use information only they are privy to for making good buys early before its released to the general public... I think something like this would go along way in a social consensus...  people underestimate your ability to use that information and get in before we're able to get in... and since invictus claims this is for the community and not for their for-profit business, that would calm a lot of speculation since we can track blocks and see who transfer what, albeit with some ability to hide transactions in unknown ID's... (not to mention insider trading laws as this is slowly being transformed into currency on the bitsharesX description page, and subject to FTC rules at that point by transitioning it into currency, despite the fact when used in other forms its simple a commodity)

otherwise using "donated" money to build up hype to raise awareness, to buy in before you do such, could make us all quite vulnerable since we're not sitting there listening to the plan of attack so to speak... so malicious things could occur which is why the company needs to divorce itself from investing in its own products, assuming these products are for the community and not for invictus... invictus said it would publish all transactions, so I assume this includes purchasing PTS, since they said they would not use any money to purchase AGS?

I acknowledge the website has recently changed to I assume handle issues raised, so while I think this is a good start, if they plan to become a true non-profit (if they choose) that will be a huge step, but until then I think having a single announcement source off the main website page, along with a statement the company and employees will not trade on information released prior or after for a period of time would go a long way... its just a huge conflict of interest to be trading in it at all...

I think these are valid points.