Author Topic: [Proposal] Bounty for First Third Party AGS/PTS Honoring DAC  (Read 24060 times)

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Offline toast

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Okay so you don't undertand the bounty idea.

It was "Invictus defines the metrics by which a successful DAC should be judged"

then you say "The most profitable DAC that honors the social contract after 12 months gets 20,000 PTS - The Most profitable DAC that honors the social contract after 18 months gets 15,000PTS, after 2 years 10,000PTS etc.

You do not define what a successful dac looks like, only how you judge it when a bunch of DACs are competing for the prize.  You ASSUME you will be successful and allow the market enough time to deliver what you're asking for because the prize is big.

You start with high amounts because you believe PTS will succeed, and so after 18 months 15,000PTS will be worth more than 20,000PTS was six months before that.  BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL WITH BUILDING THE ECOSYSTEM.

We have never done bounties like this, Invictus only has tasks and chores they want someone to do for them.  That is not a good bounty campaign, that is overpaying for specific tasks because your pool of people who even see it's available is too small.

If we're expecting Invictus to pick all "winning" DACs that can be funded, it sounds like we're in for a bad time.  Invictus has been terrible at important decisions so far, I don't see why adding public spectacle would change that.

You're totally right, I re-read the OP and now agree with you even more.

In case you missed it I'm collecting things to talk about with I3 in person, you've been writing a lot and I don't want good stuff you say to be missed:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3420.0
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Offline barwizi

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What has Invictus done to demonstrate the value of giving 20% of a new money supply to AGS/PTS holders

I wish someone would do it so we could see... because of this I agree with the motive behind your bounty, I just think it would be insta-claimed by a shitty altcoin. Actually that might be valuable because we would have had someone go through the process of initializing a genesis block with PTS/AGS. Maybe changing the wording on that bounty to be like your suggestion would be good.

Okay so you don't undertand the bounty idea.

It was "Invictus defines the metrics by which a successful DAC should be judged"

then you say "The most profitable DAC that honors the social contract after 12 months gets 20,000 PTS - The Most profitable DAC that honors the social contract after 18 months gets 15,000PTS, after 2 years 10,000PTS etc.

You do not define what a successful dac looks like, only how you judge it when a bunch of DACs are competing for the prize.  You ASSUME you will be successful and allow the market enough time to deliver what you're asking for because the prize is big.

You start with high amounts because you believe PTS will succeed, and so after 18 months 15,000PTS will be worth more than 20,000PTS was six months before that.  BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL WITH BUILDING THE ECOSYSTEM.

We have never done bounties like this, Invictus only has tasks and chores they want someone to do for them.  That is not a good bounty campaign, that is overpaying for specific tasks because your pool of people who even see it's available is too small.

If we're expecting Invictus to pick all "winning" DACs that can be funded, it sounds like we're in for a bad time.  Invictus has been terrible at important decisions so far, I don't see why adding public spectacle would change that.

No we are not expecting invictus to pick "winning" DAC's. I expect winning DAC's to be those that use bitshares x as platform for development. Those that do use bitshares x as a template for their projects will be more inclined to honor the ags/pts agreement.

devs want something more suited to their individual requirements, that still does not justify the 20% "tax".
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What has Invictus done to demonstrate the value of giving 20% of a new money supply to AGS/PTS holders

I wish someone would do it so we could see... because of this I agree with the motive behind your bounty, I just think it would be insta-claimed by a shitty altcoin. Actually that might be valuable because we would have had someone go through the process of initializing a genesis block with PTS/AGS. Maybe changing the wording on that bounty to be like your suggestion would be good.

Okay so you don't undertand the bounty idea.

It was "Invictus defines the metrics by which a successful DAC should be judged"

then you say "The most profitable DAC that honors the social contract after 12 months gets 20,000 PTS - The Most profitable DAC that honors the social contract after 18 months gets 15,000PTS, after 2 years 10,000PTS etc.

You do not define what a successful dac looks like, only how you judge it when a bunch of DACs are competing for the prize.  You ASSUME you will be successful and allow the market enough time to deliver what you're asking for because the prize is big.

You start with high amounts because you believe PTS will succeed, and so after 18 months 15,000PTS will be worth more than 20,000PTS was six months before that.  BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL WITH BUILDING THE ECOSYSTEM.

We have never done bounties like this, Invictus only has tasks and chores they want someone to do for them.  That is not a good bounty campaign, that is overpaying for specific tasks because your pool of people who even see it's available is too small.

If we're expecting Invictus to pick all "winning" DACs that can be funded, it sounds like we're in for a bad time.  Invictus has been terrible at important decisions so far, I don't see why adding public spectacle would change that.

No we are not expecting invictus to pick "winning" DAC's. I expect winning DAC's to be those that use bitshares x as platform for development. Those that do use bitshares x as a template for their projects will be more inclined to honor the ags/pts agreement.

Offline AdamBLevine

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What happened to the people who start up their own next big thing whether it be an app, game, website or DAC in their spare time? If you have a great idea and the skill-set to do it, just go for it and pick up some funding along the way or when it's ready for launch to pay lawyers or a marketing team. You'll be your own investor, paying with time.

Here, every time you wonder "Why wouldn't someone just do it for free, when they're not working at their paying job, and then give away 20% of the money supply for nothing" just think of this

WHY WOULD THEY?
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Offline barwizi

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What happened to the people who start up their own next big thing whether it be an app, game, website or DAC in their spare time? If you have a great idea and the skill-set to do it, just go for it and pick up some funding along the way or when it's ready for launch to pay lawyers or a marketing team. You'll be your own investor, paying with time.

yes...and the demand to pay 20% "taxes"?
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Offline rysgc

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What happened to the people who start up their own next big thing whether it be an app, game, website or DAC in their spare time? If you have a great idea and the skill-set to do it, just go for it and pick up some funding along the way or when it's ready for launch to pay lawyers or a marketing team. You'll be your own investor, paying with time.
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Offline AdamBLevine

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What has Invictus done to demonstrate the value of giving 20% of a new money supply to AGS/PTS holders

I wish someone would do it so we could see... because of this I agree with the motive behind your bounty, I just think it would be insta-claimed by a shitty altcoin. Actually that might be valuable because we would have had someone go through the process of initializing a genesis block with PTS/AGS. Maybe changing the wording on that bounty to be like your suggestion would be good.

Okay so you don't undertand the bounty idea.

It was "Invictus defines the metrics by which a successful DAC should be judged"

then you say "The most profitable DAC that honors the social contract after 12 months gets 20,000 PTS - The Most profitable DAC that honors the social contract after 18 months gets 15,000PTS, after 2 years 10,000PTS etc.

You do not define what a successful dac looks like, only how you judge it when a bunch of DACs are competing for the prize.  You ASSUME you will be successful and allow the market enough time to deliver what you're asking for because the prize is big.

You start with high amounts because you believe PTS will succeed, and so after 18 months 15,000PTS will be worth more than 20,000PTS was six months before that.  BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL WITH BUILDING THE ECOSYSTEM.

We have never done bounties like this, Invictus only has tasks and chores they want someone to do for them.  That is not a good bounty campaign, that is overpaying for specific tasks because your pool of people who even see it's available is too small.

If we're expecting Invictus to pick all "winning" DACs that can be funded, it sounds like we're in for a bad time.  Invictus has been terrible at important decisions so far, I don't see why adding public spectacle would change that.
Email me at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

Offline barwizi

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agreement with who?

You're making this point in several threads. Of course you are free to not participate in the contract/agreement.
It seems like you are just also surprised that this causes other people to not want to support your venture. You don't do your part, the counterparty doesn't do their part.

"We don't need you! Why are we being shunned?"

Point of correction, it's pointless to even mention it because i was at the fore-front writing it. What does it say if i who wrote it, find it to be inadaquate? They even cancelled the bounty..........maybe because they saw that there was no real incentive to follow it.

If only you knew the support i have.
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Offline toast

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What has Invictus done to demonstrate the value of giving 20% of a new money supply to AGS/PTS holders

I wish someone would do it so we could see... because of this I agree with the motive behind your bounty, I just think it would be insta-claimed by a shitty altcoin. Actually that might be valuable because we would have had someone go through the process of initializing a genesis block with PTS/AGS. Maybe changing the wording on that bounty to be like your suggestion would be good.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline AdamBLevine

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agreement with who?

You're making this point in several threads. Of course you are free to not participate in the contract/agreement.
It seems like you are just also surprised that this causes other people to not want to support your venture. You don't do your part, the counterparty doesn't do their part.

"We don't need you! Why are we being shunned?"

Toast:  Why would anyone want to honor the invictus social contract for 10/10 as it currently exists now.    Put yourself in the shoes of a developer deciding between this, ethereum or another platform, or building your own by forking one of the many options out there including Bitshares as soon as it releases but selling the 100% of tokens to people at a lower rate than the market price for BTS and keeping the money for your project.

What has Invictus done to demonstrate the value of giving 20% of a new money supply to AGS/PTS holders
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Offline toast

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agreement with who?

You're making this point in several threads. Of course you are free to not participate in the contract/agreement.
It seems like you are just also surprised that this causes other people to not want to support your venture. You don't do your part, the counterparty doesn't do their part.

"We don't need you! Why are we being shunned?"
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline barwizi

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I do not understand how this thread has gone on for so long. It seems more than evident that the simple issue is that there are not enough competent developers in the space. The point of what invictus is doing right now with bitshares is to launch a viable product and from that product create an easy to use template for people to make dacs.

Additionally if there were a competent dac developer than I would expect him/her to develop without the need of some sort of bounty reward as developers will get paid relative to the success of their dac. This suggests that either developers do not have the skills to create these dacs yet or they do not have the confidence in their ideas and implementations to start developing.

I think that everyone here should be cognizant of the fact that this is a company and not just some open source project. They have a full time team whose livelihood is dependent upon the success of this product. Although the forum is an open space for the exchange of ideas, your participation on this forum does not make you an employee of their company. How can you be mad at them for not allowing bounties that would distract from their main goal, which is to complete their flagship dac, particularly when you barzwizi do not plan on honoring the ags/pts agreement?

If bitshares is successfully released and there is no further DAC development than perhaps these concerns may be warranted, but as for right now these complaints are not productive, just distracting.

Quote
ags/pts agreement?

agreement with who?
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Offline AdamBLevine

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So if Bitshares is unsuccessful, the ecosystem is dead?

I don't think that's how it works.  Invictus makes their livelihood from paying themselves from Angelshares and missing self imposed deadlines.

Quote
"Additionally if there were a competent dac developer than I would expect him/her to develop without the need of some sort of bounty reward as developers will get paid relative to the success of their dac. This suggests that either developers do not have the skills to create these dacs yet or they do not have the confidence in their ideas and implementations to start developing. "

Why would a competent team design a DAC that expands Invictus's ecosystem when Invictus holds all the money, all the power to distribute it and revokes bounties when they think they're not going as Invictus thought they would.      If you are competent, you can just start your own ecosystem - It's not hard, and again look around this forum - How many people do you think are here that makes the community so valuable?  Not as many as a month ago, or two months ago.  There are other games in town, and they WANT people developing for their ecosystem. 

If Invictus waits for people to realize what a great idea it is to develop for their ecosystem and give 20% of their money supply to people from whom they have recieved nothing but who will demand 20% or not be willing to help as we've seen with Barwizi and MMC.

I understand it's not fully clear how this looks when you're inside it, but take a few steps back and apply your standards to invictus's behavior, priorities and statements.


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I do not understand how this thread has gone on for so long. It seems more than evident that the simple issue is that there are not enough competent developers in the space. The point of what invictus is doing right now with bitshares is to launch a viable product and from that product create an easy to use template for people to make dacs.

Additionally if there were a competent dac developer than I would expect him/her to develop without the need of some sort of bounty reward as developers will get paid relative to the success of their dac. This suggests that either developers do not have the skills to create these dacs yet or they do not have the confidence in their ideas and implementations to start developing.

I think that everyone here should be cognizant of the fact that this is a company and not just some open source project. They have a full time team whose livelihood is dependent upon the success of this product. Although the forum is an open space for the exchange of ideas, your participation on this forum does not make you an employee of their company. How can you be mad at them for not allowing bounties that would distract from their main goal, which is to complete their flagship dac, particularly when you barzwizi do not plan on honoring the ags/pts agreement?

If bitshares is successfully released and there is no further DAC development than perhaps these concerns may be warranted, but as for right now these complaints are not productive, just distracting.

Offline santaclause102

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Because you're picking projects to fund rather than laying out the very basic things a successful dac requires, putting out a bounty and letting teams opt to go after your eco system

Right now you're making them pitch to you, and you've centralized the process on daniel.  Just define what a successful ideal dac looks like after six months of operation and let the market decide, not any man!

The answer to your earlier question, I believe what I have proposed here is fundamentally different than your shark tank all-ideas-pass-through-invictus funnel.    I think you should focus on being oracle gatekeepers after you've proven you're more than aspiring students.  Bounties incentivize the participation of equals who don't need your money up front but want to know they've got stake when they deliver value with their venture.

I see Adams proposal as an alternative that is worth considering and the more approaches to enrich the ecosystem the better. It might indeed help to solve part of the I3 bottle neck problem for widening the ecosystem faster. The issue I see though is that funding makes sense at the beginning if a project. When one criteria is to be sucessful, which could me measured by a for example 10x increase in market cap, then the bounty would be granted when the developers have funds from ther early investment already anyway which makes the bounty less of an incentive.