Author Topic: "I think the biggest thing is...that they are going to continue using ASICs."  (Read 7626 times)

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Offline fuzzy

But ultimately, they will rely on the Bitcoin Blockchain...correct?  What if something happens to the Bitcoin network?  What if it is compromised?

And JoeyD... <3 man...<3

Much respect...
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 10:02:07 am by fuznuts »
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Offline JoeyD

...

How can you free yourself from the technical limitations of Bitcoin if you're a sidechain? Please explain this.

Also how do developers make money from the process? How does crowd funding take place?

A sidechain is a completely different blockchain. For example say enough people want to have faster confirmation times than the 10 minutes from bitcoin, then a 2.5 minute litecoin like sidechain can be created and there can even be a different token amount based on a preprogrammed exchange rate. For example every bitcoin locked into the lite-side-chain-contract would issue 4 lite-btc on the 2,5 minute block confirmation sidechain.

There are many, many ways to fund development even outside of internal revenue of the sidechain. Pumping and dumping or premine are not the only "solutions". Developers will have to work out for themselves how they intend to fund themselves or if they even want monetary compensation for working on interesting ideas (just making bitcoin more useable and valuable could be enough compensation for some). They could code it in directly via a percentage cut of transfer-fees or at the moment of issuance of the new chain btc-pegged-tokens. There are other ways they could raise funds outside of the chain itself, by collecting bounties from interested parties or by working for companies that need something that can be done more easily on a sidechain than on the bitcoin main-chain, say for example companies wanting to do smart contracts and hiring devs to develop and maintain a turing-complete contract sidechain. (That last possibilty seems to have affected Ethereums project lead V. Buterin most of all, judging by the amount of posts on the bitcoin subbreddit about this 2-way-pegging and apparently him feeling the need to defend the worth of his project.)

...

Is this side chain idea good or evil? I still cannot figure out whether or not it will work or why developers would want anything to do with it.

Good or evil? According to whom? From the point of view of some bitcoin devs and Dr. Adam Back alt-coins are seen as diluting, distracting and shameless copy-cats with evil intentions by not wanting to contribute to bitcoin and even a threat to the very survival of the idea of cryptocurrencies. One major fear seems to be that if bitcoin were to be replaced by an alt-coin that would be a terminal blow to the credibility of the whole concept and make any crypto-coin replaceable and therefore unreliable in the eyes of the general public. Admittedly I myself was bothered by everyone using the bitcoin2.0 term and think that it was not very clever to try and make bitcoin sound inferior without realizing that this just sets you up to be bitten in the ass when the next alt-coins come along happily naming themselves bitcoin3.0 or bitcoin.ad-nauseam. I did not expect however that this project announcement would make all bitcoin2.0 alt-coins sound petty and inferior to bitcoin overnight. Personally I think that bitshares should try to distance themselves from the 2.0-gimmick as much as possible, especially since I don't think we can confidently say we've even reached anything close to the 1.0 version of bitcoin yet.

At the moment I'm not convinced that Dr. A. Back is an evil person. His motivation seems to be to enable free experimentation and development, but in conjunction with bitcoin instead of in competition with it, and he also sees it as a way to get rid of scam-like pump and dump schemes, because these sidechains are pegged to bitcoin and completely voluntary. But even if the developers are not evil, that does not mean that they have spent enough time working out all possible bad effects this could have, because that tends to be a blind spot for people focusing on new technology and possibilities.

As to why developers would want to contribute, that's almost as impossible to answer as the good vs evil one. You could just as well ask why wouldn't developers want to play with this. The ability to try out new things which are difficult in the current design of bitcoin, but without the need to set up a completely new alt-coin community plus things like exchanges and such, is plenty motivational by itself.

I've suggested this before, but I think you'll get better answers if you listen to the interviews with Dr. Adam Back that are published online and read the discussions on reddit, bitcointalk and maybe even the discussion about two-way-pegging on the bitcoin-mailinglist. I don't think it's wise to base your point of view on the judgement of others and especially not on someone as deficient as I am.

Personally I think this is a very ingenious concept and could make bitcoin better/more useable than it is now. I'm also not that convinced about the good intentions of people behind a lot of alt-coins, so I'm not that disturbed by their possible extinction. This unfortunately also includes projects like Ethereum where imho some very, very disturbing things have been uttered by smooth talking individuals, but that could just mean I'm evil for not separating my pov of the project because of those statements, that very possibly might be in direct opposition to the intentions of a larger less vocal and hopefully far more influential part of the team. So again I urge you to seek out the information yourself until your confident about your ability to make a judgement. That way you'll be better equiped than I can be, my abilities in this regard are limited to put it mildly.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 10:05:30 am by JoeyD »

Offline luckybit

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Lets break this down to the basics at the risk of creating a straw man design:

Step 1) In Bitcoin chain, suspend coins on main bitcoin block chain
Step 2) In Sidechain,  verify that the coins were suspended in bitcoin chain using light weight validation.
Step 3) Time Passes
Step 4) In Sidechain,  issue transaction that provably destroys coins.
Step 5) In Bitcoin chain, given transaction that provably destroys coins, restore bitcoins.

Assumptions:
1) Bitcoin blockchain is secure and has insurmountable hashpower
2) Side chains only need the bitcoin block headers to validate incoming transfers
3) Bitcoin miners need headers of side chains to validate Step 5
    - with proof of stake coins, headers alone may not be sufficient for light weight clients because full block contents is necessary to know who should be signing for each block.
    - this means miners will have to rely on some kind of block explorer....
    - all bitcoin miners must be able to validate all transactions.... which means that side chains require 51% support of the miners. 

Conclusion:
  Bitcoin miners determine which side chains get supported.
  Bitcoin miners are centralized which means experimentation will be limited.
  Miners would have to voice support for a side chain and only allow transactions in/out of the side chain while 51% of blocks are produced by miners that claim to recognize the side chain.

So while steps 1 through 5 sound spiffy in theory, I believe that the only way to solve step 4 to 5 in a reasonable way is to assume that all side chains are also secured by proof-of-work which can be used as the simple, generic, validation measure.   This means that side chains must be merge-mining based.   I think this is a case of them making bold claims without actually walking through the details.

Is this side chain idea good or evil? I still cannot figure out whether or not it will work or why developers would want anything to do with it.
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Offline luckybit

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What I didn't get about the blockchain 2.0 thing is...
- What incentive does a developer have to issue his coin/DAC as a bitcoin sidechain? There is the benefit of the network effect but how can he personally monetize his efforts? Just by owning a lot of BTC himself - increasing the value BTC because the Bitcoin network is used more?
-  How efficient can a sidechain DAC be? Efficient here as a function of: Confirmation times, tx fees (without diluting the own coins) and network security? Can it be faster/less costly/more secure than Bitcoin transactions?

- Sidechains can build in any incentives they want, including a percentage to devs instead of miners. The sidechains are not beholden to bitcoins limitations.
- Apparently as efficient as anyone is able to code it. Yes.

How can you free yourself from the technical limitations of Bitcoin if you're a sidechain? Please explain this.

Also how do developers make money from the process? How does crowd funding take place?
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Offline santaclause102

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The sidechain is a completely separate blockchain but the tokens on that chain are mathematically anchored in smart-contracts on the bitcoin-main-chain. But tx-fees, tx-times, security etc are all independent from the bitcoin-mainchain. Dr. A. Back calls it firewalled. So any experimentation on the sidechain will have no detrimental effect on bitcoin. The sidechain is able to interact with those smart-contracts on the bitcoin mainchain. Only the crossover from main-chain into sidechain or vice-versa will have a preset confirmation delay on the bitcoin-mainchain for security, but exchanging bitcoins for side-chain-bitcoins would also be possible.
How would those smart contracts be structured that you mentioned?
Unfortunately I'm not qualified to be part of the development team, all I can do is repeat what I've read and heard about the project and given that the project hasn't even officially started yet that isn't much. From what I've read it seems to work the way ByteMaster described it, but no exact details have been published as far as I know. There seems to have been some discussion on the subject via mailing lists. The only things that have come out is that Dr. Adam Back as inventor of bitcoins POW-mechanic and household name in the CypherPunk community is not some nobody without a track record and that they were able to work out the math and convince even the skeptics among the bitcoin core-devs.

However as ByteMaster pointed out, working out the technical solution (which they most likely are able to do) does not mean there will be no practical issues going forward. Then again, things are not looking all that bright for many of the POW-alt-coins out there, especially the simpler ones like litecoin and such.
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Offline JoeyD

The sidechain is a completely separate blockchain but the tokens on that chain are mathematically anchored in smart-contracts on the bitcoin-main-chain. But tx-fees, tx-times, security etc are all independent from the bitcoin-mainchain. Dr. A. Back calls it firewalled. So any experimentation on the sidechain will have no detrimental effect on bitcoin. The sidechain is able to interact with those smart-contracts on the bitcoin mainchain. Only the crossover from main-chain into sidechain or vice-versa will have a preset confirmation delay on the bitcoin-mainchain for security, but exchanging bitcoins for side-chain-bitcoins would also be possible.
How would those smart contracts be structured that you mentioned?
Unfortunately I'm not qualified to be part of the development team, all I can do is repeat what I've read and heard about the project and given that the project hasn't even officially started yet that isn't much. From what I've read it seems to work the way ByteMaster described it, but no exact details have been published as far as I know. There seems to have been some discussion on the subject via mailing lists. The only things that have come out is that Dr. Adam Back as inventor of bitcoins POW-mechanic and household name in the CypherPunk community is not some nobody without a track record and that they were able to work out the math and convince even the skeptics among the bitcoin core-devs.

However as ByteMaster pointed out, working out the technical solution (which they most likely are able to do) does not mean there will be no practical issues going forward. Then again, things are not looking all that bright for many of the POW-alt-coins out there, especially the simpler ones like litecoin and such.

Offline santaclause102

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The sidechain is a completely separate blockchain but the tokens on that chain are mathematically anchored in smart-contracts on the bitcoin-main-chain. But tx-fees, tx-times, security etc are all independent from the bitcoin-mainchain. Dr. A. Back calls it firewalled. So any experimentation on the sidechain will have no detrimental effect on bitcoin. The sidechain is able to interact with those smart-contracts on the bitcoin mainchain. Only the crossover from main-chain into sidechain or vice-versa will have a preset confirmation delay on the bitcoin-mainchain for security, but exchanging bitcoins for side-chain-bitcoins would also be possible.
How would those smart contracts be structured that you mentioned?

Offline JoeyD

If that relates to the tx times, tx fees and security: How can that be? I thought that with the bitcoin 2.0 approach security and tx conformation is still provided by the bitcoin network / by bitcoin miners and that is costly and slow and only as secure as mining pools are not corrupted.

The sidechain is a completely separate blockchain but the tokens on that chain are mathematically anchored in smart-contracts on the bitcoin-main-chain. But tx-fees, tx-times, security etc are all independent from the bitcoin-mainchain. Dr. A. Back calls it firewalled. So any experimentation on the sidechain will have no detrimental effect on bitcoin. The sidechain is able to interact with those smart-contracts on the bitcoin mainchain. Only the crossover from main-chain into sidechain or vice-versa will have a preset confirmation delay on the bitcoin-mainchain for security, but exchanging bitcoins for side-chain-bitcoins would also be possible.

Different question: What are the DAC/Coin value determining factors for the "altcoin" on the side cain? Assuming the following: BTC appreciate in value/price because they are used much and the amount of btc in supply is limited, respectively because a high volume in tx are assumed for the future. Now, in order to access the service that the DAC/Coin on the sidechain is offering, do I have to use the sidechain coin as well as bitcoin?   

The use of sidechains is for things bitcoins main-chain is not ideal and offers a clean solution instead of cluttering the bitcoin-mainchain with piggy-backing coins. So the value comes from use and technical superiority of those sidechains, not from pumping and dumping or minting of new (alt)coins.

EDIT
BM and toast posted while I was writing this, so there is probably more educated information in their posts. Also I'd suggest reading the reddit-threads on the subject from reactions from the Adam Back and bitcoin core-devs.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 06:40:11 pm by JoeyD »

Offline toast

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Do you think they will enable a sidechain that has either CTT or two-way peg to a chain with BitBTC?
What happens then?
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Offline bytemaster

Lets break this down to the basics at the risk of creating a straw man design:

Step 1) In Bitcoin chain, suspend coins on main bitcoin block chain
Step 2) In Sidechain,  verify that the coins were suspended in bitcoin chain using light weight validation.
Step 3) Time Passes
Step 4) In Sidechain,  issue transaction that provably destroys coins.
Step 5) In Bitcoin chain, given transaction that provably destroys coins, restore bitcoins.

Assumptions:
1) Bitcoin blockchain is secure and has insurmountable hashpower
2) Side chains only need the bitcoin block headers to validate incoming transfers
3) Bitcoin miners need headers of side chains to validate Step 5
    - with proof of stake coins, headers alone may not be sufficient for light weight clients because full block contents is necessary to know who should be signing for each block.
    - this means miners will have to rely on some kind of block explorer....
    - all bitcoin miners must be able to validate all transactions.... which means that side chains require 51% support of the miners. 

Conclusion:
  Bitcoin miners determine which side chains get supported.
  Bitcoin miners are centralized which means experimentation will be limited.
  Miners would have to voice support for a side chain and only allow transactions in/out of the side chain while 51% of blocks are produced by miners that claim to recognize the side chain.

So while steps 1 through 5 sound spiffy in theory, I believe that the only way to solve step 4 to 5 in a reasonable way is to assume that all side chains are also secured by proof-of-work which can be used as the simple, generic, validation measure.   This means that side chains must be merge-mining based.   I think this is a case of them making bold claims without actually walking through the details.

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Offline santaclause102

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What I didn't get about the blockchain 2.0 thing is...
- What incentive does a developer have to issue his coin/DAC as a bitcoin sidechain? There is the benefit of the network effect but how can he personally monetize his efforts? Just by owning a lot of BTC himself - increasing the value BTC because the Bitcoin network is used more?
-  How efficient can a sidechain DAC be? Efficient here as a function of: Confirmation times, tx fees (without diluting the own coins) and network security? Can it be faster/less costly/more secure than Bitcoin transactions?

- Sidechains can build in any incentives they want, including a percentage to devs instead of miners. The sidechains are not beholden to bitcoins limitations.
- Apparently as efficient as anyone is able to code it. Yes.

Quote
The sidechains are not beholden to bitcoins limitations.
If that relates to the tx times, tx fees and security: How can that be? I thought that with the bitcoin 2.0 approach security and tx conformation is still provided by the bitcoin network / by bitcoin miners and that is costly and slow and only as secure as mining pools are not corrupted.

Different question: What are the DAC/Coin value determining factors for the "altcoin" on the side cain? Assuming the following: BTC appreciate in value/price because they are used much and the amount of btc in supply is limited, respectively because a high volume in tx are assumed for the future. Now, in order to access the service that the DAC/Coin on the sidechain is offering, do I have to use the sidechain coin as well as bitcoin?   

Offline toast

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We can have a standalone exchange chain with both CTT with bitshares and two-way bitBTC/BTC peg.

Best case scenario... bitcoin massively diluted by bitbtc for bts holder gain.

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What I didn't get about the blockchain 2.0 thing is...
- What incentive does a developer have to issue his coin/DAC as a bitcoin sidechain? There is the benefit of the network effect but how can he personally monetize his efforts? Just by owning a lot of BTC himself - increasing the value BTC because the Bitcoin network is used more?
-  How efficient can a sidechain DAC be? Efficient here as a function of: Confirmation times, tx fees (without diluting the own coins) and network security? Can it be faster/less costly/more secure than Bitcoin transactions?

- Sidechains can build in any incentives they want, including a percentage to devs instead of miners. The sidechains are not beholden to bitcoins limitations.
- Apparently as efficient as anyone is able to code it. Yes.

Then what are the drawbacks?


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Offline JoeyD

What I didn't get about the blockchain 2.0 thing is...
- What incentive does a developer have to issue his coin/DAC as a bitcoin sidechain? There is the benefit of the network effect but how can he personally monetize his efforts? Just by owning a lot of BTC himself - increasing the value BTC because the Bitcoin network is used more?
-  How efficient can a sidechain DAC be? Efficient here as a function of: Confirmation times, tx fees (without diluting the own coins) and network security? Can it be faster/less costly/more secure than Bitcoin transactions?

- Sidechains can build in any incentives they want, including a percentage to devs instead of miners. The sidechains are not beholden to bitcoins limitations.
- Apparently as efficient as anyone is able to code it. Yes.

Offline santaclause102

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What I didn't get about the blockchain 2.0 thing is...
- What incentive does a developer have to issue his coin/DAC as a bitcoin sidechain? There is the benefit of the network effect but how can he personally monetize his efforts? Just by owning a lot of BTC himself - increasing the value BTC because the Bitcoin network is used more?
-  How efficient can a sidechain DAC be? Efficient here as a function of: Confirmation times, tx fees (without diluting the own coins) and network security? Can it be faster/less costly/more secure than Bitcoin transactions?