Author Topic: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations  (Read 18308 times)

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Offline liberman

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it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expense

That's where you're wrong. It DOES matter who mines them. Because if you get 10,000 small guys mining a bit and making some coin they'll stick around and support your project. If you get 10 guys sucking up all the resources with vast cloud mining pools you'll have nobody to support you. As soon as the financial opportunity dries up those 10 guys will dump their PTS and move on. You'll end up being the leader of a broken down crypto experiment that nobody cares about any more.

If you don't get the wide base of supporters in the beginning your project is doomed. I hope you figure out some way to make it work. Maybe on the next DAC you should focus all your efforts on trying to make it accessible to the millions of CPU miners at home who don't want to compete with botnets. Figure out a way to block cloud miners and botnets and you'll become the king of cryptos.

Amen.  ;)

Offline Lighthouse

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it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expense

That's where you're wrong. It DOES matter who mines them. Because if you get 10,000 small guys mining a bit and making some coin they'll stick around and support your project. If you get 10 guys sucking up all the resources with vast cloud mining pools you'll have nobody to support you. As soon as the financial opportunity dries up those 10 guys will dump their PTS and move on. You'll end up being the leader of a broken down crypto experiment that nobody cares about any more.

If you don't get the wide base of supporters in the beginning your project is doomed. I hope you figure out some way to make it work. Maybe on the next DAC you should focus all your efforts on trying to make it accessible to the millions of CPU miners at home who don't want to compete with botnets. Figure out a way to block cloud miners and botnets and you'll become the king of cryptos.

what do you think dumping means?
it means selling to other people: the new supporters

Two profound observations:

1.  We would love to please everybody.
2.  You can't please everybody.

Everybody has a different definition of "fair", usually meaning "what works best for them."

The momentum algorithm was the result of a lot of R&D and bounties to come up with a "more fair" solution and to achieve the goal of maximum decentralizationOur Prime Directive.  Maximum decentralization inherently means "benefit the little guys".

We will continue to search for better ways to achieve this goal and sponsor bounties to stimulate community research toward that end.

But this is an arms race.  People with great resources will always find a way to out-compete those who don't.  Every move we make will have counter moves.  We will then make counter-counter moves. 

Because Distributed Autonomous Corporations are not incorruptible if they are not distributed and autonomous.

Centralization is the enemy of everything we stand for. 
And fighting it is more important to us than personal wealth.

+1
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline Stan

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it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expense

That's where you're wrong. It DOES matter who mines them. Because if you get 10,000 small guys mining a bit and making some coin they'll stick around and support your project. If you get 10 guys sucking up all the resources with vast cloud mining pools you'll have nobody to support you. As soon as the financial opportunity dries up those 10 guys will dump their PTS and move on. You'll end up being the leader of a broken down crypto experiment that nobody cares about any more.

If you don't get the wide base of supporters in the beginning your project is doomed. I hope you figure out some way to make it work. Maybe on the next DAC you should focus all your efforts on trying to make it accessible to the millions of CPU miners at home who don't want to compete with botnets. Figure out a way to block cloud miners and botnets and you'll become the king of cryptos.

what do you think dumping means?
it means selling to other people: the new supporters

Two profound observations:

1.  We would love to please everybody.
2.  You can't please everybody.

Everybody has a different definition of "fair", usually meaning "what works best for them."

The momentum algorithm was the result of a lot of R&D and bounties to come up with a "more fair" solution and to achieve the goal of maximum decentralizationOur Prime Directive.  Maximum decentralization inherently means "benefit the little guys".

We will continue to search for better ways to achieve this goal and sponsor bounties to stimulate community research toward that end.

But this is an arms race.  People with great resources will always find a way to out-compete those who don't.  Every move we make will have counter moves.  We will then make counter-counter moves. 

Because Distributed Autonomous Corporations are not incorruptible if they are not distributed and autonomous.

Centralization is the enemy of everything we stand for. 
And fighting it is more important to us than personal wealth.




Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline flower1024

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it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expense

That's where you're wrong. It DOES matter who mines them. Because if you get 10,000 small guys mining a bit and making some coin they'll stick around and support your project. If you get 10 guys sucking up all the resources with vast cloud mining pools you'll have nobody to support you. As soon as the financial opportunity dries up those 10 guys will dump their PTS and move on. You'll end up being the leader of a broken down crypto experiment that nobody cares about any more.

If you don't get the wide base of supporters in the beginning your project is doomed. I hope you figure out some way to make it work. Maybe on the next DAC you should focus all your efforts on trying to make it accessible to the millions of CPU miners at home who don't want to compete with botnets. Figure out a way to block cloud miners and botnets and you'll become the king of cryptos.

what do you think dumping means?
it means selling to other people: the new supporters

Offline bytemaster

it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expense

That's where you're wrong. It DOES matter who mines them. Because if you get 10,000 small guys mining a bit and making some coin they'll stick around and support your project. If you get 10 guys sucking up all the resources with vast cloud mining pools you'll have nobody to support you. As soon as the financial opportunity dries up those 10 guys will dump their PTS and move on. You'll end up being the leader of a broken down crypto experiment that nobody cares about any more. If you don't get the wide base of supporters in the beginning your project is doomed. I hope you figure out some way to make it work. Maybe on the next DAC you should focus all your efforts on trying to make it accessible to the millions of CPU miners at home who don't want to compete with botnets.

Well, if they dump them on the market cheap, then there is ample opportunity for everyone.   I happen to know that most of the large cloud miners are turning around and selling their PTS to people highly invested in the success of this project.   Anyone following us for the past month and started mining in the first few days has received SEVERAL HUNDRED DOLLARS worth of PTS. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline ken

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it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expense

That's where you're wrong. It DOES matter who mines them. Because if you get 10,000 small guys mining a bit and making some coin they'll stick around and support your project. If you get 10 guys sucking up all the resources with vast cloud mining pools you'll have nobody to support you. As soon as the financial opportunity dries up those 10 guys will dump their PTS and move on. You'll end up being the leader of a broken down crypto experiment that nobody cares about any more.

If you don't get the wide base of supporters in the beginning your project is doomed. I hope you figure out some way to make it work. Maybe on the next DAC you should focus all your efforts on trying to make it accessible to the millions of CPU miners at home who don't want to compete with botnets. Figure out a way to block cloud miners and botnets and you'll become the king of cryptos.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 11:36:05 pm by ken »

Offline bytemaster

3) The fork came just in time to save the investment of ALL holders, not just early miners. Later guys are actually lucky to be getting anything
4) just like any race if you get there first, you get first place you cant come in @ the back and expect us to celebrate you.

Do you hear yourself talking? "Later" ?? "the back" ???

This thing went from being a viable idea to a cesspool run by cloud miners and botnets in 2 weeks flat. It wasn't months or years like previous crypto currencies. It was 2 WEEKS! It has to be a world record.

This is purely led by greed. Big cloud mining farms drain the pond and suck up all the money. Everyone else gets nothing. In the end you'll have 10 guys sitting on 2,000,000 PTS each and the rest of the people will have 2 or 3. Most people will move on and look for the next new CPU mining opportunity and this project will fade away just like FTC or TRC or CNC. So, enjoy your 2,000,000 shares of nothing. Hopefully you'll dump early and make some money.

First of all, cloud mining is more or less equal opportunity and is not free.   Those paying for cloud hosting a paying more per PTS than those mining at home.  Lastly, it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expenses which means the price is lower right now because of their efforts and you can get it cheaper.

The jealousy and greed of people who feel they deserve FREE PTS without having to work for it astounds me.   At the current price of PTS you could be earning a very high profit margin operating from home, but instead you choose to compare yourself to those entrepreneurs who realized if they invest more they can make more.    There are no free lunches in this life, and right now mining PTS at home is the closest you will get.



   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline ken

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3) The fork came just in time to save the investment of ALL holders, not just early miners. Later guys are actually lucky to be getting anything
4) just like any race if you get there first, you get first place you cant come in @ the back and expect us to celebrate you.

Do you hear yourself talking? "Later" ?? "the back" ??

This thing went from being a viable idea to a cesspool run by cloud miners and botnets in 2 weeks flat. It wasn't months or years like previous crypto currencies. It was 2 WEEKS! It has to be a world record.

This is purely led by greed. Big cloud mining farms drain the pond and suck up all the money. Everyone else gets nothing. In the end you'll have 10 guys sitting on 2,000,000 PTS each and the rest of the people will have 2 or 3. Most people will move on and look for the next new CPU mining opportunity and this project will fade away just like FTC or TRC or CNC. So, enjoy your 2,000,000 shares of nothing. Hopefully you'll dump early and make some money.

 

« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 11:25:49 pm by ken »

Offline barwizi

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Truth is i see much butthurt in this post, sorry to be crass.

1) the announcement was pretty public and early
2) the network issues and unexpected adoption was way beyond projected estimates and cannot be controlled, remember it was solo first
3) The fork came just in time to save the investment of ALL holders, not just early miners. Later guys are actually lucky to be getting anything
4) just like any race if you get there first, you get first place you cant come in @ the back and expect us to celebrate you.
5) This is actually one of the most viable ideas in recent months with a large enough community interest to go far plus room for improvement and expansion. I'm no expert, but if you can clearly argue against my points , i may reconsider your butthurt opinions.
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Offline Stan

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In a number of current articles at LetsTalkBitcoin.com we have documented our definition of what constitutes a true Distributed Autonomous Corporation (DAC). You can find them on the links tab at Invictus-Innovations.com

Invictus Innovations, INC is a flesh and blood company subject to all of the risks and regulations of the jurisdictions in which we operate.  We are highly distributed by design, but we are not autonomous and do not have DAC-like immunity to coercion from the Powers That Be.  We remain Invictus Innovations, INC.  ProtoShares might in some ways be viewed metaphorically as Invictus, DAC
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Offline Stan

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Agreed.  Invictus common stock is privately held and subject to all the usual regulations about if, when and how we can offer it to the public.

That said, ProtoShares is innovative in that it exhibits some of the benefits of owning actual stock in a company.  They serve as a surrogate for measuring the market's assessment of a company's future potential (or at least the potential of its announced and potential products) and thus a way for perceptive investors to indirectly participate in any growth of that assessment. 

Of course, if other competitors choose to honor ProtoShares in a social contract for their DACs, then ProtoShares might better be viewed as a vehicle for speculating on a whole new market sector.

Watch for a coming article where I lay out some of the emerging theory behind how DACs can spawn DACs.

This is a new frontier with many unknown risks and rewards.
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Offline Lighthouse

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Man, sorry that this had to happen to you wrt to the hardware that's not recoverable cost (if you weren't that distraught, I would suggest using that hardware to mine BitShares).
Could things have been done better? Yes. That doesn't imply any malice in my opinion and no 'principles' were violated. Sometimes you gotta do things to survive. Hopefully the whole team can learn a lot from this and the next releases will be smoother.

Also, everything is open source, you're welcome to create your own version if you think people would follow that better.

Hey, Invictus is in a great position!   Our mining pool is securing us about 3% of all ProtoShares which will be about 30,000 PTS.     Keyhotee IDs are generating revenue.   Those 30,000 PTS will be going up in value as the ideas and community grow and ultimately will put us in a very good position.    That hardware will still be productive and profitable and of course will be used to mine DomainShares and BitShares when they launch.   

Without ProtoShares this forum and community would be much smaller, but now EVERYONE has financial incentive to make BitShares a reality in the market place.   We have decentralized our business in the market and *THAT* was our goal.  Invictus is turning itself into a DAC via ProtoShares.    And this is the secret that few understand :)

I figured that Protoshares were a stock in Invictus and that it is a DAC. Will we get dividends if we hold onto the Protoshares?

Not sure why you think that, if you've read any of the material about Protoshares you should know it is fundamentally different from stock in Invictus - Stock in invictus implies you own part of the company, whereas owning Protoshares is essentially prepaying for the results of the company, the different products.

So Protoshares is different in that it has a tangible payoff behind it that will occur on a specific date, but it's not stock.
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline luckybit

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Man, sorry that this had to happen to you wrt to the hardware that's not recoverable cost (if you weren't that distraught, I would suggest using that hardware to mine BitShares).
Could things have been done better? Yes. That doesn't imply any malice in my opinion and no 'principles' were violated. Sometimes you gotta do things to survive. Hopefully the whole team can learn a lot from this and the next releases will be smoother.

Also, everything is open source, you're welcome to create your own version if you think people would follow that better.

Hey, Invictus is in a great position!   Our mining pool is securing us about 3% of all ProtoShares which will be about 30,000 PTS.     Keyhotee IDs are generating revenue.   Those 30,000 PTS will be going up in value as the ideas and community grow and ultimately will put us in a very good position.    That hardware will still be productive and profitable and of course will be used to mine DomainShares and BitShares when they launch.   

Without ProtoShares this forum and community would be much smaller, but now EVERYONE has financial incentive to make BitShares a reality in the market place.   We have decentralized our business in the market and *THAT* was our goal.  Invictus is turning itself into a DAC via ProtoShares.    And this is the secret that few understand :)

I figured that Protoshares were a stock in Invictus and that it is a DAC. Will we get dividends if we hold onto the Protoshares?
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Offline ruletheworld

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Man, sorry that this had to happen to you wrt to the hardware that's not recoverable cost (if you weren't that distraught, I would suggest using that hardware to mine BitShares).
Could things have been done better? Yes. That doesn't imply any malice in my opinion and no 'principles' were violated. Sometimes you gotta do things to survive. Hopefully the whole team can learn a lot from this and the next releases will be smoother.

Also, everything is open source, you're welcome to create your own version if you think people would follow that better.

Hey, Invictus is in a great position!   Our mining pool is securing us about 3% of all ProtoShares which will be about 30,000 PTS.     Keyhotee IDs are generating revenue.   Those 30,000 PTS will be going up in value as the ideas and community grow and ultimately will put us in a very good position.    That hardware will still be productive and profitable and of course will be used to mine DomainShares and BitShares when they launch.   

Without ProtoShares this forum and community would be much smaller, but now EVERYONE has financial incentive to make BitShares a reality in the market place.   We have decentralized our business in the market and *THAT* was our goal.  Invictus is turning itself into a DAC via ProtoShares.    And this is the secret that few understand :)
Fair enough, but remember this also multiplies the expectations from BitShares. Not that it's a bad thing, just saying!
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Offline itnom

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Hi bytemaster,

How are you intending to pay others who help in developing the DACs and all surrounding services?

I've personally got a webdev company and know plenty of good C and C++ developers. We've come around now and would get payed in bitcoin, but most of the team wouldn't accepts PTS at this point.

I'm personally very interested to contribute somehow to the development of DACs, though we're a pure web dev company.

Best,
Itnom
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