Author Topic: Airdrop concerns with Lottoshares  (Read 7343 times)

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Offline testz

Just my 2 BIP.

The solution can be to start from blank page and not to honor MemoryCoin (MMC) holders. This will solve a historical problems and misunderstandings?

Offline NewMine

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Newmine is a crank and has been hounding me ever since I called him greedy and stupid to discourage others from joining him in his short-sighted behavior with MemoryCoin. He has lied about me many times and his statements continue to be deliberately skewed and misleading. He is continuing to conduct a personal butthurt vendetta.

Un skew them. Tell me and everyone else what was a lie. Please.

I was always honest with my original intentions. I was trying to win the vote. For all the positions. Then I was to split the earnings between those who voted me. I did exactly that with what few elections we won.  It wasn't until I looked into what I needed to unseat you that I began to see addresses with large amounts of premine coins linked to voting for you.  Blah blah blah, go rehash all the old posts if you like. If you remember, I brought all these concerns to you in a PM so you could address them privately and you ignored me. I also made this pm public if you'd like to find it in one of my old posts.

Instead of calling me a liar, can you tell the community what I am lying about?

Quote

MemoryCoin 1 was a public project that everyone could take part in. MemoryCoin 2 genesis was discussed in public and everyone was free to take part in that discussion. Salaries in MemoryCoin 2 are voted on in public, are transparent and are a major feature of the coin.

Pretty sure this was covered in the OP.

Quote
LottoShares is a new project. It is a DAC of which I could choose to keep 100% if I so decided. That's the same as founding any other corporation. I'm giving away the vast majority of it, over 98% to encourage participation.

But of course you could keep it for yourself. What good would that do you? By airdropping, someone  systematically creates bag holders who don't even know they are bag holders. This is a great way to scam people.

Offline HackFisher

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The Lottoshares DAC Denny/Hackfisher is doing is honoring MMC. Why?

Answering my own question: LottoShares is what MMC developer (former Protoshares maintainer) Freetrade is doing, nothing officially supported by Invictus. Of course he is honouring his own coin....
clarify:
Bitshares Lotto != Lotto Shares
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline xeroc

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OK, so now you have hit on something really, really BIG!  This is where PTS/AGS earn their 10%s.
Probably

This community is the single biggest group of well-informed experts on what makes a good BitShares DAC.
When a developer honors this community, it is, in part, to take advantage of that expertise to get a thorough rectal examination and vetting that they can point to with pride.
lol .. i am just amused about ....  rectal examination .... too funny

(Presumably, if this community finds no show-stoppers and is excited about the product, that is the primordial DAC equivalent of an endorsement from Underwriter's Labs, Consumer Reports and an alphabet soup of consumer protection agencies BEUC/SPCA/PETA/EPA, etc.)

This is not something I3 can do, but it is something the BitShares Community can do!
Thats actually what I also mentioned on an other thread, that this might be a very good opportunity to earn money here.
However, my abilities in reading code are somewhat limited :-(

//edit: link: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4737.msg60801#msg60801

Offline xeroc

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Check source code (in order to prevent stealing of privkeys) probably mean that we also should publish precompiled binaries?
Update: As idea, we can distribute binaries over BitShares nightly build system.
That's probably the consequence ... too good we already have jenkins in place :-) *thumbs up*

Offline Stan

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What should be this community's policy about endorsing third party DACs in general?
I'd say let them do but, ...
We feel responsible for investors and do the following:

* check genesis block and coin distribution after launch
* check source code (in order to prevent stealing of privkeys)
* check DAC model/profit

When all is fine we could announce a +ACK or a -NACK to investors.

OK, so now you have hit on something really, really BIG!  This is where PTS/AGS earn their 10%s.

This community is the single biggest group of well-informed experts on what makes a good BitShares DAC.
When a developer honors this community, it is, in part, to take advantage of that expertise to get a thorough rectal examination and vetting that they can point to with pride.

(Presumably, if this community finds no show-stoppers and is excited about the product, that is the primordial DAC equivalent of an endorsement from Underwriter's Labs, Consumer Reports and an alphabet soup of consumer protection agencies BEUC/SPCA/PETA/EPA, etc.)

This is not something I3 can do, but it is something the BitShares Community can do!

This community is not all-knowing.  But who else is better qualified to vet a new DAC?

"Who ya gonna call?"

:)


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline testz

What should be this community's policy about endorsing third party DACs in general?
I'd say let them do but, ...
We feel responsible for investors and do the following:

* check genesis block and coin distribution after launch
* check source code (in order to prevent stealing of privkeys)
* check DAC model/profit

When all is fine we could announce a +ACK or a -NACK to investors.

Check source code (in order to prevent stealing of privkeys) probably mean that we also should publish precompiled binaries?
Update: As idea, we can distribute binaries over BitShares nightly build system.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 01:44:42 pm by testz »

Offline xeroc

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What should be this community's policy about endorsing third party DACs in general?
I'd say let them do but, ...
We feel responsible for investors and do the following:

* check genesis block and coin distribution after launch
* check source code (in order to prevent stealing of privkeys)
* check DAC model/profit

When all is fine we could announce a +ACK or a -NACK to investors.

Offline Stan

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it is not a good start for Dacs!  Remember also that at first he don't wanted the AGS participation.Remember also that he changed his mind and canceled the project after 3 days...  lol...  now he changed his mind again...  newmine concerns make absolute sense!  Even if it is not a SCAM Bytemaster and Stan MUST take care on how to prevent future DAC scams because even we as a community don't loose money because we purchase "free" money we will loose also at last because bad reputation will occur on our ecosystem at the end...

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Respectfully, Stan and Dan have little they can do about DAC scams.  It is the community that needs to inform one another, and the community that must build a value base strong enough to dissuade people from attempting to use them for unearned rewards.

We discussed this topic recently on a Chinese thread,
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4730.msg60771#msg60771
but in case you missed it, here is the question I asked:

Without making any value judgements about any particular developer, what should the BitShares community's policy be about promoting developers who (wisely) choose to honor PTS and AGS?

We have said in the past that, as long as there is not an legal/ethical/philosophical conflict, any DAC that honors the community will be honored by the community.

My absurd example was that "Slavetrader, DAC" would probably not qualify.  [https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2166.msg25947#msg25947]

Should we be involved in vetting 3rd party developers?  Or should we just be appreciative of anyone who thinks enough of this community to seek its support?

All right. I'll imagine this for you.

Say,I developed a coin called "JobCoin",intend to provide a information business that let people find jobs and let company hire people,they should use my "JobCoin" to pay to post their information.

I premine 100%,then give 50% to PTS and AGS (very good,right ? I'm a good guy at the eyes of 3i).But,hey,this 50% has to be locked for 3 month to longer time before  it will be trade able.

Now, by the power of 3i promotion , JobCoin successfully get on all major trading platforms.Since it's promoted by 3i,then the market would love this coin from the start,my 50% coin can sell at a good price.

After selling the coin,I get say ....200K USD easily.Then , I can get off to the sunset and enjoy some quality time with my loaded wallet.

And then , I don't need to maintain this coin anymore. But hey , the community can curse me .That's my wrong doing ,I can take it .

The problem is ,the community won't just hate me . They see this "JobCoin" as 3i's product,no matter how you explain the concept of "3rd party".For example , during that time Feb. 28th which lead to PTS's price boost , some big time MMC dealer also said that MMC is a "3i related product,and because PTS has good news,MMC is bound to rise."  That's the real relationship between 3i and 3rd party DAC.They ignore the "3rd" part.

So,if you say I just need to give PTS and AGS a share,you would support me no matter what ,then I think more developer would join this pool. The problem is ,
if 3i can really separate itself from the potential harm or bad act by the 3rd party DAC 3i's promoting ?

I think the 3rd party != full immunity for 3i,at least on a public image level. If 3rd party DAC do good, 3i will benefited. But what if other wise ?

PS. I just image the worst way of doing the wrong thing,not that will surely happen,not that anyone done this or can do this.
But,  Can I do this ? That's the real question.

You have presented a valid concern.
Sooner or later something bad like this could happen.

The alternative is to give up on teaming with many great 3rd Party DACs.
It is generally not possible to know the difference in advance.

If we did a small (affordable) amount of due diligence, this could make matters worse. Then there would be an expectation that we are guaranteeing a perfect outcome. And no such guarantee is possible.

The choice seems to be: 
Support no 3rd Party DACs.
Support all 3rd Party DACs.

As soon as we decline one, the expectation is that we are smart enough to decline all bad and accept all good.  A slippery slope?

Do you see any better alternatives?

Given that an endorsement is a powerful incentive for third parties to honor PTS/AGS
but endorsing a scam would do serious damage to the BitShares brand...

What should be this community's policy about endorsing third party DACs in general?

« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 01:28:33 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline toast

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MMC premine was dumb.

Complaining about an extra ~0.3% premine on top of an existing 30% premine is even more dumb.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline gamey

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Yea, this whole thing strikes me as absurd.  No doubt with all those airdrops freetrade will be able to sneak in extra equity if he chooses, but he could just as well give himself more of it anyway.  I'm not really getting this..  It is a corporation, not a currency.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline FreeTrade

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Newmine is a crank and has been hounding me ever since I called him greedy and stupid to discourage others from joining him in his short-sighted behavior with MemoryCoin. He has lied about me many times and his statements continue to be deliberately skewed and misleading. He is continuing to conduct a personal butthurt vendetta.

MemoryCoin 1 was a public project that everyone could take part in. MemoryCoin 2 genesis was discussed in public and everyone was free to take part in that discussion. Salaries in MemoryCoin 2 are voted on in public, are transparent and are a major feature of the coin.

LottoShares is a new project. It is a DAC of which I could choose to keep 100% if I so decided. That's the same as founding any other corporation. I'm giving away the vast majority of it, over 98% to encourage participation.

“People should be more sophisticated? How are you gonna get that done?” - Jerry Seinfeld reply to Bill Maher

Offline gyhy

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Offline fuzzy


Respectfully, Stan and Dan have little they can do about DAC scams.  It is the community that needs to inform one another, and the community that must build a value base strong enough to dissuade people from attempting to use them for unearned rewards.


I agree. I only try to say that we must be extra  careful  with the first DAC releases to win the crypto communitys confidence and to build the best possible reputation in the BEGINNING, it's very crucial!  Imagine the big scams for bitcoin took place before it would go mainstream...  I even suggest that the first DAC release must come from 3I or at least from people/company's  that have in general a good reputation...


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Very good point.  I am planning to start Dev/Community voice sessions for DAC devs who are trying to build solid products...the best thing I can think of would be for the community to know about the legitimate vs the illegitimate DAC proposals.  But there again it all depends on how much value the community wants to bring to it.   
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Offline liondani

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Respectfully, Stan and Dan have little they can do about DAC scams.  It is the community that needs to inform one another, and the community that must build a value base strong enough to dissuade people from attempting to use them for unearned rewards.


I agree. I only try to say that we must be extra  careful  with the first DAC releases to win the crypto communitys confidence and to build the best possible reputation in the BEGINNING, it's very crucial!  Imagine the big scams for bitcoin took place before it would go mainstream...  I even suggest that the first DAC release must come from 3I or at least from people/company's  that have in general a good reputation...


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