What Coins are worth DAC Air Drops?

[fuzzy]

The way I would Airdrop to PoW communities is to create a lottery and make them mine for it by buying lottery tickets (similar to AGS only with no predictability or guarantee beyond a minimum amount). The total amount they could win would be random but within a certain range of say 100-10,000 shares per ticket.

Then let everyone just buy these tickets and hold onto them. On the snapshot date then people who have more of these tickets have a higher probability of getting a larger stake but it's not guaranteed.

Ultimately it should be random enough that someone could buy 1 ticket and get 10,000 shares while another person could buy 100 tickets and get 10,000 shares.

It wouldn't matter if someone was an early adopter or elite of Litecoin because anyone else would have just as good of a chance to become an elite in the new chain. This would be critical in my opinion because we don't want to recreate the elite from a PoW chain onto a DPoS chain when they never liked DPoS. It would be like giving all of the Bitcoin stakes to the central banks and people who made fun of Bitcoin or who said it was evil.

It is interesting reading the whole explanation of your plan.  I do have to wonder how the economics of the split currency would work.  Blackcoin isn't going to be abandoned and to outsiders the split coins will just look like a money grab for no real reason.  People say 'the market will sort it out'... but will it sort it out in a way that actually makes Bitshares look good ?

As far as the above idea, all you are doing is recreating purchasing shares through capital but adding a gambling element to it.  Everything else being equal, the wealthy would just end up buying more tickets.  Not sure how this approach does anything in regards to preventing the 'elite' from having power.

Man this discussion has changed!

[gamey]

The way I would Airdrop to PoW communities is to create a lottery and make them mine for it by buying lottery tickets (similar to AGS only with no predictability or guarantee beyond a minimum amount). The total amount they could win would be random but within a certain range of say 100-10,000 shares per ticket.

Then let everyone just buy these tickets and hold onto them. On the snapshot date then people who have more of these tickets have a higher probability of getting a larger stake but it's not guaranteed.

Ultimately it should be random enough that someone could buy 1 ticket and get 10,000 shares while another person could buy 100 tickets and get 10,000 shares.

It wouldn't matter if someone was an early adopter or elite of Litecoin because anyone else would have just as good of a chance to become an elite in the new chain. This would be critical in my opinion because we don't want to recreate the elite from a PoW chain onto a DPoS chain when they never liked DPoS. It would be like giving all of the Bitcoin stakes to the central banks and people who made fun of Bitcoin or who said it was evil.

It is interesting reading the whole explanation of your plan.  I do have to wonder how the economics of the split currency would work.  Blackcoin isn't going to be abandoned and to outsiders the split coins will just look like a money grab for no real reason.  People say 'the market will sort it out'... but will it sort it out in a way that actually makes Bitshares look good ?

As far as the above idea, all you are doing is recreating purchasing shares through capital but adding a gambling element to it.  Everything else being equal, the wealthy would just end up buying more tickets.  Not sure how this approach does anything in regards to preventing the 'elite' from having power.

[luckybit]

The way I would Airdrop to PoW communities is to create a lottery and make them mine for it by buying lottery tickets (similar to AGS only with no predictability or guarantee beyond a minimum amount). The total amount they could win would be random but within a certain range of say 100-10,000 shares per ticket.

Then let everyone just buy these tickets and hold onto them. On the snapshot date then people who have more of these tickets have a higher probability of getting a larger stake but it's not guaranteed.

Ultimately it should be random enough that someone could buy 1 ticket and get 10,000 shares while another person could buy 100 tickets and get 10,000 shares.

It wouldn't matter if someone was an early adopter or elite of Litecoin because anyone else would have just as good of a chance to become an elite in the new chain. This would be critical in my opinion because we don't want to recreate the elite from a PoW chain onto a DPoS chain when they never liked DPoS. It would be like giving all of the Bitcoin stakes to the central banks and people who made fun of Bitcoin or who said it was evil.

I believe the people who are most interested in the technology should be the ones who have the highest probability of becoming an elite stakeholder in it. In Bitcoin this would have been the early adopters because back then no one knew about Bitcoin except the people who were already thinking about these sorts of problems. We should recreate this pattern to continuously shuffle the deck so that an elite only forms around the people who really took a chance or who really pay attention to this stuff.

[luckybit]

The whole Blackshares crypto-merger idea was based on some thinking I had about economic allegiances a while ago. The idea was solidified when I had a private conversation with someone else who was talking about crypto-mergers and BlackDoge. I thought BlackDoge was good marketing but the technologies didn't pair up as well as what Blackshares could be.

The point is that PoS communities share an interest and should begin merging chains so that all PoS communities can update to the best technology (DPoS). The way to get this to happen is to approach every PoS community which reaches a certain market cap, volume, and has a vibrant community, and do what I tried to do for the Blackcoin community.

Offer to make a "shares" franchise for their community. Offer 50/50 split. Offer to have developers in our community make the fork for them and handle everything. All they have to do is market and (sell) the technology in their community.

The result was supposed to be that DPoS would become the default technology for Proof of Stake communities until something better. Blackcoin needs to update it's technology to DPoS so it was a perfect strategic opportunity and still is to approach them offering to make a Blackshares franchise for them. Even if you don't get their permission someone from our community should use the Bitshares toolkit to make Blackshares and split it 50/50 between communities just to protect our own community from hostile forks.

So I'm still promoting the idea that the best marketing strategy we can have is to convert every altcoin community we can to DPoS and split it 50/50. This would benefit us and them because we'd have more volume to every chain and they'd have better technology.

But I do not advocate doing it with just random coins or with Proof of Work. It should be targeted and there should be a method to our madness even if to the outside it seems random. The effect this could have (these Airdrops) could be to make people who have PoS coins hold onto them in hopes that there will be Airdrops. That could benefit the adoption of PoS as a whole as we don't Airdrop to communities who have values which promote inflation but to the communities which promote deflation.

That would mean no Airdrop to Freicoin, Litecoin, Bitcoin, unless they convert to Proof of Stake.

If we don't do things like this, someone will, and they will benefit greatly from sitting at the head of the round table with all those loyal "altcoin" knights

The Proof of Work communities generally don't want Proof of Stake technology. If Bitcoin core devs and the mining elite wanted it they have more brain power than any other community and would have it.

The Litecoin community has plenty of brain power as well and there is no evidence they want Proof of Stake. All you're going to do if you try to force it on them is make it look like you're creating another scam coin like Bytecoin.

Dogecoin already has a Dogeshares or Shibecoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=595767.0nd it didn't work too well. No one switched to the PoS and it ended up being treated as a scam.

My point is you cannot change the culture of a community just by offering superior technology. Miners don't like Proof of Stake unless they can mine it. Blackcoin is the only community along with Peercoin where the miners seem to want Proof of Stake and a technological upgrade.

If you try to push technology without the support of the core devs and demographics of each community you approach then like Stan said it will be viewed as an attack. You have to also take into account the distribution of the coins as well.

Blackcoin actually has fair distribution while Bitcoin and Litecoin are becoming less fair every day due to the way mining is set up. Why would you want to avoid coins which are centralized, which aren't fairly distributed, which don't value Proof of Work technology, which don't even want Mastercoin or Counterparty built on top of it?

The only way I could see doing an Airdrop to Bitcoin and Litecoin would be to do it in a way which doesn't benefit the early adopters of Bitcoin or Litecoin, but which somehow benefits random addresses. Essentially make it into a sort of lottery where people have to keep entering it to win shares in the Byteshares DAC. You might even be able to get people to pay a small fee for each lottery ticket to fund the development of the DAC.

This way you reset the mining to 0 and start all over again in such a way that the elite don't gain any advantage from switching to DPoS. Only the people who buy a lot of tickets and who are truly lucky would benefit and it would shuffle the deck.

[fuzzy]

The whole Blackshares crypto-merger idea was based on some thinking I had about economic allegiances a while ago. The idea was solidified when I had a private conversation with someone else who was talking about crypto-mergers and BlackDoge. I thought BlackDoge was good marketing but the technologies didn't pair up as well as what Blackshares could be.

The point is that PoS communities share an interest and should begin merging chains so that all PoS communities can update to the best technology (DPoS). The way to get this to happen is to approach every PoS community which reaches a certain market cap, volume, and has a vibrant community, and do what I tried to do for the Blackcoin community.

Offer to make a "shares" franchise for their community. Offer 50/50 split. Offer to have developers in our community make the fork for them and handle everything. All they have to do is market and (sell) the technology in their community.

The result was supposed to be that DPoS would become the default technology for Proof of Stake communities until something better. Blackcoin needs to update it's technology to DPoS so it was a perfect strategic opportunity and still is to approach them offering to make a Blackshares franchise for them. Even if you don't get their permission someone from our community should use the Bitshares toolkit to make Blackshares and split it 50/50 between communities just to protect our own community from hostile forks.

So I'm still promoting the idea that the best marketing strategy we can have is to convert every altcoin community we can to DPoS and split it 50/50. This would benefit us and them because we'd have more volume to every chain and they'd have better technology.

But I do not advocate doing it with just random coins or with Proof of Work. It should be targeted and there should be a method to our madness even if to the outside it seems random. The effect this could have (these Airdrops) could be to make people who have PoS coins hold onto them in hopes that there will be Airdrops. That could benefit the adoption of PoS as a whole as we don't Airdrop to communities who have values which promote inflation but to the communities which promote deflation.

That would mean no Airdrop to Freicoin, Litecoin, Bitcoin, unless they convert to Proof of Stake.

If we don't do things like this, someone will, and they will benefit greatly from sitting at the head of the round table with all those loyal "altcoin" knights

[luckybit]

I also want to make clear because I know people are going to say: "Why would you fork Bitshares XT when we currently have 100% of all Bitshares chains?".

The reason is marketing. The way to get volume to increase for future Bitshares chains (since Bytemaster is committed to bringing the latest features to the main Bitshares chains) is to use forks of the XT or limited features chains to promote Bitshares technology itself to other communities.

Once they get a taste of the technology then they will not have the development expertise to keep pace with Bytemaster and will have to use the main chain which our community owns 100% of in order to use the chain with the best and latest features.

So we should get them on our platform for free similar to what Microsoft did by giving away Windows 95 for free. Once everyone is using DPoS then the latest version will be the version which we own 100% of and since every community will have been converted it would be easier for people to just transfer some BitGold from their limited feature chains to our main chain.

And of course once their developer expertise rises then their chains might have some exclusive features which Bytemaster could copy for the main chain and eventually these limited feature chains could become better than the main chain but we would all own 50% stake in them. That is better than letting them fork it and we own 0% stake while they screw it all up with scams.

[luckybit]

The whole Blackshares crypto-merger idea was based on some thinking I had about economic allegiances a while ago. The idea was solidified when I had a private conversation with someone else who was talking about crypto-mergers and BlackDoge. I thought BlackDoge was good marketing but the technologies didn't pair up as well as what Blackshares could be.

The point is that PoS communities share an interest and should begin merging chains so that all PoS communities can update to the best technology (DPoS). The way to get this to happen is to approach every PoS community which reaches a certain market cap, fair-distribution, volume, and has a vibrant community, and do what I tried to do for the Blackcoin community.

Offer to make a "shares" franchise for their community. Offer 50/50 split. Offer to have developers in our community make the fork for them and handle everything. All they have to do is market and (sell) the technology in their community.

The result was supposed to be that DPoS would become the default technology for Proof of Stake communities until something better. Blackcoin needs to update it's technology to DPoS so it was a perfect strategic opportunity and still is to approach them offering to make a Blackshares franchise for them. Even if you don't get their permission someone from our community should use the Bitshares toolkit to make Blackshares and split it 50/50 between communities just to protect our own community from hostile forks.

So I'm still promoting the idea that the best marketing strategy we can have is to convert every altcoin community we can to DPoS and split it 50/50. This would benefit us and them because we'd have more volume to every chain and they'd have better technology.

But I do not advocate doing it with just random coins or with Proof of Work. It should be targeted and there should be a method to our madness even if to the outside it seems random. The effect this could have (these Airdrops) could be to make people who have PoS coins hold onto them in hopes that there will be Airdrops. That could benefit the adoption of PoS as a whole as we don't Airdrop to communities who have values which promote inflation but to the communities which promote deflation.

That would mean no Airdrop to Freicoin, Litecoin, Dogecoin, Bitcoin, unless they convert to Proof of Stake.

[luckybit]

I was also against Blackcoin airdrop, but I always understood the proposal to be in the form of a "charity airdrop" of a DAC's shares.  I didn't think it was about recreating the coin for them.  I don't care about recreating their coin and it doesn't make sense given they are already POS.

I just don't think they're particularly special or deserving as far as an airdrop.  Since there are no DACs I am not sure why a few opinions on the forums even mattered as it couldn't happen at the time and wouldn't need Blackcoin's permission anyway to do the airdrop.  I'm confused.


Luckybit -
How was the Blackcoin community meeting held?  Is the meeting recorded somewhere ?  What format do they use for such thing ?  IRC ?  Forums ?

Blackshares was supposed to be a Blackcoin community oriented fork of Bitshares XT.

It would be XT but with different BitAssets to make it worth our while to have. The Airdrop would get both PoS communities on board because we'd share a stake in the success of this hybrid chain. The Airdrop would be marketed as a crypto-merger and turn Bitshares into a PoS franchise. PoS communities would then not have to fork DPoS technology because our community would do it for them and split it with them 50/50, which would protect both of our communities from hostile forks.

It would have the assets that the Blackcoin community voted on or decided on with BitGold as the transfer between our chain and theirs. We'd have to split 50/50 the shares between Bitshares XT holders and Blackcoin holders. The marketing would be done by the Blackcoin community and they would integrate Blackshares into their multipool mining technology.

Overall I thought it was a good idea but everyone was saying we should wait for XT and saying XT would be released soon. So the idea while good is still on hold until XT can be released and then after XT is released along with the toolkit then the idea can be brought back to life again.

I think if you're going to create stakeholders in other communities you have to personalize the technology for their demographic. You can't just take the exact same chain and same assets and put it on a new community because that isn't valuable for either our community or theirs. If you let them help design and personalize the technology then we can split it 50/50, let it be the BitAssets that the Blackcoin or whatever community chooses, let them have a vote as to what kind of chain they want it to be so it's customized.

The master strategy was to unite Proof of Stake communities using these sorts of spinoffs or crypto-mergers. Unfortunately we would rather compete with each other than collaborate at this time.

[tonyk]

I would airdrop for all the DACs, choosing a demographic or two that would be likely to value a stake in the success of each one. It would cost us almost nothing and give us a ton of free marketing, ultimately a far better chance of building a big initial buzz to get these things off the ground the right way. Then again, every time this airdrop idea comes up in the forums, it seems like the first round or two of posters supports it and then there is a decidedly anti-drop force that appears to sink the suggestion. So I don't know what to say, other than that "If we build it, they will come" worked in a movie.

When the DACs start to make money, we'll have no shortage of interest in them, but that initial success depends upon getting more stakeholders involved. If we're not going to air-drop, then what are some other suggestions for marketing? I know a lot of people around here are very talented at coding (for which I am thankful, since I know nothing about it). Do you also trust yourselves to spread the word to new and diverse sectors of the market, sufficiently to ensure Bitshares' success? If so, tell me what's going to be any cheaper and more successful than an air drop?

I think this is an important opportunity to expand the base.

I agree with your points...especially considering that most of ags funds are for development.  Sadly, it seems that most the community is not infavor of "air drops" by invictus.  Fortunately that is not keeping us or anyone else from recreating a DAC and honoring PTS/AGS along with another coin or two...and letting the coin communities compete for the most valuable DAC version.

That is a totally not true!
I think that the community is much in favor of using funds that they have already donated for ‘developing the industry’ for all kind of marketing! What the community, may I add totally reasonably objects, is invictus saying they will not even think of using those funds for marketing, but will be happy with all kind of marketing schemes diluting the investors share.

[fuzzy]

I would airdrop for all the DACs, choosing a demographic or two that would be likely to value a stake in the success of each one. It would cost us almost nothing and give us a ton of free marketing, ultimately a far better chance of building a big initial buzz to get these things off the ground the right way. Then again, every time this airdrop idea comes up in the forums, it seems like the first round or two of posters supports it and then there is a decidedly anti-drop force that appears to sink the suggestion. So I don't know what to say, other than that "If we build it, they will come" worked in a movie.

When the DACs start to make money, we'll have no shortage of interest in them, but that initial success depends upon getting more stakeholders involved. If we're not going to air-drop, then what are some other suggestions for marketing? I know a lot of people around here are very talented at coding (for which I am thankful, since I know nothing about it). Do you also trust yourselves to spread the word to new and diverse sectors of the market, sufficiently to ensure Bitshares' success? If so, tell me what's going to be any cheaper and more successful than an air drop?

I think this is an important opportunity to expand the base.

I agree with your points...especially considering that most of ags funds are for development.  Sadly, it seems that most the community is not infavor of "air drops" by invictus.  Fortunately that is not keeping us or anyone else from recreating a DAC and honoring PTS/AGS along with another coin or two...and letting the coin communities compete for the most valuable DAC version.

[donkeypong]

I would airdrop for all the DACs, choosing a demographic or two that would be likely to value a stake in the success of each one. It would cost us almost nothing and give us a ton of free marketing, ultimately a far better chance of building a big initial buzz to get these things off the ground the right way. Then again, every time this airdrop idea comes up in the forums, it seems like the first round or two of posters supports it and then there is a decidedly anti-drop force that appears to sink the suggestion. So I don't know what to say, other than that "If we build it, they will come" worked in a movie.

When the DACs start to make money, we'll have no shortage of interest in them, but that initial success depends upon getting more stakeholders involved. If we're not going to air-drop, then what are some other suggestions for marketing? I know a lot of people around here are very talented at coding (for which I am thankful, since I know nothing about it). Do you also trust yourselves to spread the word to new and diverse sectors of the market, sufficiently to ensure Bitshares' success? If so, tell me what's going to be any cheaper and more successful than an air drop?

I think this is an important opportunity to expand the base.

[gamey]

I was also against Blackcoin airdrop, but I always understood the proposal to be in the form of a "charity airdrop" of a DAC's shares.  I didn't think it was about recreating the coin for them.  I don't care about recreating their coin and it doesn't make sense given they are already POS.

I just don't think they're particularly special or deserving as far as an airdrop.  Since there are no DACs I am not sure why a few opinions on the forums even mattered as it couldn't happen at the time and wouldn't need Blackcoin's permission anyway to do the airdrop.  I'm confused.


Luckybit -
How was the Blackcoin community meeting held?  Is the meeting recorded somewhere ?  What format do they use for such thing ?  IRC ?  Forums ?

[Empirical1]

In terms of other Airdrops. It must have been suggested before but what about making DAC's that replicate the exact features of certain coins but with DPOS and other benefits. Then we give existing holders of the coin we just improved  80% equity. (20% for Bitshares.)

So it would be 'Litecoin 2.0' for example. People would have almost the same % equity as they did in Litecoin 1.0

I think that could have some potential.

If you can present it to them as a gift and not an attack... 

The Blackcoin community seemed interested. I even convinced the community manager to post here. The Bitshares community wasn't interested at the time though.

Eventually I got around 60% of the forum to get on board. The community manager had a meeting with the Blackcoin community and I haven't heard from him since. Now they have BlackHalo but I really think Blackshares could be better than that.

And they are the type of community to actually trade and hold. They aren't like Doge who will give it all away in tips or like Bitcoiners who will spend more because they have to pay mining expenses or because they have no real incentive to save.

Yeah I was one of those who disagreed with you. BlackCoin is made up of alt-coin miners, so I believe they are the least loyal most profit driven group out there. Many of the other coins have strong stable communities who might be willing to support an improved version of their coin. Especially now with GHash reaching the magic 50% again. Now would have been a good time. This is what I said about BlackCoin at the time you suggested Blackshares and I haven't really changed my view.

I like the multi-pool to BC payout idea, their new dump defence & the Blackcard thing is interesting and I would probably agree that their marketing is above average.

I've made good money riding the pumps and dumps so far, however given that 80%+ of BlackCoin's volume still comes from Mintpal, I'm not sure if they've had much success in developing a community outside the alt-coin miners?

& IMO alt-coin miners aren't really a community but more like a plague of locusts. They've put many mining pools over the 51% hashrate barrier. Even Bitcoin pools have had to increase their fees (BTC Guild) or stop new people joining their pool (Ghash.io) in the past to get their hashrates down. To me this shows alt-coin miners are the least 'community like' group out there. They don't even care if they kill their host in the process of swarming onto the most profitable coin or mining pool of the hour. (So the majority of BlackCoin holders are the antithesis of us and probably not a community we want to airdrop AGS directly too though I'm not completely against some other form of alliance.) I also therefore think that attracting alt-coin miners has little to do with marketing and more to do with just being the current most profitable alternative. Unfortunately BlackCoin  may have a limited shelf life in that respect, once it starts hitting 50-100 million, the alt-coin miners will likely be more profitable moving onto a lower CAP POS where their volume flow moves their share price more.

Edit: I'm not against it, I just don't think they're the strongest candidate. 

Having said, I think it's cool you got the community manager interested though and set that up - a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

 

[tonyk]

In terms of other Airdrops. It must have been suggested before but what about making DAC's that replicate the exact features of certain coins but with DPOS and other benefits. Then we give existing holders of the coin we just improved  80% equity. (20% for Bitshares.)

So it would be 'Litecoin 2.0' for example. People would have almost the same % equity as they did in Litecoin 1.0

I think that could have some potential.

If you can present it to them as a gift and not an attack... 

The gift of technological improvement ?  Of owning a coin without constant downward price pressure ?  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

It's a good point Stan, maybe Litecoin 2.0 might sound a bit threatening.

However in general if you are offering improvements and people are keeping almost the same % share as they already own in the new coin it should be received quite well.

With NEM for example which was a NXT clone that aimed to have better distribution.
As people were able to get a stake for free and therefore replicate some of their NXT position. It was 'generally' received quite well. I think it was also doing quite nicely CAP wise till a recent scandal, despite not really solving the issues it set out to and despite  being listed on the NXT asset exchange, (the coin it was initially improving on.)

So all in all a coin that represents a real improvement for users and lets them replicate their existing % stake for free should do ok imo.

Getting the support/blessing of key devs on target coins could smooth the process too.

I could see some anonymous dev releasing ltc 2.0 with DPOS along with a 80/20 stake between ltc/pts/ags and a timeline projecting the amount of time it will take for the original ltc holders to be "made whole" from the dividends

For LTC even 90/5/5 sounds good to me. I think people from this community will understand why they do not get the 10% as per the ‘social contract’ (it is like a herring swallowing a shark ), and litecoiners will be made whole in no time (the lack of inflation will compensate them for those 10% more shares in a matter of months)…
Cool let’s go.

[luckybit]

In terms of other Airdrops. It must have been suggested before but what about making DAC's that replicate the exact features of certain coins but with DPOS and other benefits. Then we give existing holders of the coin we just improved  80% equity. (20% for Bitshares.)

So it would be 'Litecoin 2.0' for example. People would have almost the same % equity as they did in Litecoin 1.0

I think that could have some potential.

If you can present it to them as a gift and not an attack... 

The Blackcoin community seemed interested. I even convinced the community manager to post here. The Bitshares community wasn't interested at the time though.

Eventually I got around 60% of the forum to get on board. The community manager had a meeting with the Blackcoin community and I haven't heard from him since. Now they have BlackHalo but I really think Blackshares could be better than that.

And they are the type of community to actually trade and hold. They aren't like Doge who will give it all away in tips or like Bitcoiners who will spend more because they have to pay mining expenses or because they have no real incentive to save.