Author Topic: 2020: A Call For DApps & DAO's  (Read 2681 times)

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Offline G1ng3rBr34dM4n

Re: 2020: A Call For DApps & DAO's
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2014, 01:31:36 pm »

we went WAY off-topic here

Yes!  [/soapbox rant]

Looking forward to hearing about more DACs!


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Offline arhag

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Re: 2020: A Call For DApps & DAO's
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2014, 05:43:43 pm »
... still big farms have a WAY higher *efficiency* .. just consider the big machines they can use .. and efficiency is an important issue when it comes to energy supply and the second law of thermodynamics (i.e. global warming)

Good point Xeroc - I agree energy supply is an important factor, but I don't believe its isolated on just the farms.  In the U.S. food is shipped, on average, about 1900 miles from the source of production. 

Going off on a tangent here, but there are also a lot of REALLY big issues I have with the sheer volume of pesticides, insecticides, and fungicides being dumped over the plants that are inevitably accelerating climate change and damaging ecosystems.  I don't have issues with GMO's (again, technologically objective perspective); what I do have an issue with is why GMO's are developed, enabling monopolies to force the ever increasing usage of harmful chemicals.

I also believe this goes beyond efficiencies.  I was catching drinks with my boss last night and he brought up a really good point; do we really know what we're putting into our bodies?  Like really??  I would love to know 100% exactly what inorganic materials and what ratios of those materials make up the plant matter I'm ingesting.  I would also like to have the assurance that I'm not ingesting chemicals "known to the state of California" to cause cancer.  And I'd like fresh strawberries when there's a foot of snow outside.  Or heirloom tomatoes.  Or arugula where the flavor profile is dialed in just right.

This is just the tip of the ice berg with what's possible and I say we bring back the flavor first and foremost. :-D

My intention is not at all to diminish what you are doing. It sounds really cool. But I am interested to see what your thoughts are on something like Soylent? I mean in some sense it is a very depressing way forward for humanity. People enjoy eating fresh natural food. But there is a lot of efficiency to be gained by taking advantage of economies of scale to farm nutrients and then convert the nutrition into a form that can travel really well over long distances without spoiling. And I don't even think it would need to travel that far. Someday in the future, it could be possible to grow the nutrients in well-controlled, large bio-factories powered by nuclear power located not too far away from major population centers.

And I am confident there will always be ample demand for fresh, natural foods for the purpose of luxury and pleasure. But if that becomes something more like a twice a week thing, people could afford to pay higher prices for the better-quality (compared to what most people eat today that is) natural foods. And it is still not clear to me why the economies of scale provided by centralization wouldn't make the high quality foods cheaper than the decentralized alternative. Or is the case that the decentralization is worth the cost for the security it provides families, since food is essential to living? But then you also need to decentralize the other dependencies necessary to grow the food and keep people alive and satisfied: power, water, waste management, mesh networks. Otherwise, not being dependent on centralized institutions for food is kind of meaningless when you are still dependent on them for your electricity/gas and water supply.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 05:49:23 pm by arhag »

Offline santaclause102

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Re: 2020: A Call For DApps & DAO's
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2014, 11:34:50 pm »
Quote
My intention is not at all to diminish what you are doing. It sounds really cool. But I am interested to see what your thoughts are on something like Soylent? I mean in some sense it is a very depressing way forward for humanity. People enjoy eating fresh natural food. But there is a lot of efficiency to be gained by taking advantage of economies of scale to farm nutrients and then convert the nutrition into a form that can travel really well over long distances without spoiling. And I don't even think it would need to travel that far. Someday in the future, it could be possible to grow the nutrients in well-controlled, large bio-factories powered by nuclear power located not too far away from major population centers.
This is a bit off topic and has nothing to do with Gingerbread's DAC proposal.
It is a myth that food can be enhanced by braking it down into its "essential" parts where after only the valuable parts are taken and put into a product (powder or liquid).
A few things to mention are:
If we take away some parts, what are the parts we don't need? Mostly fibers and water are left out which are crucial too. There is nothing not crucial in natural foods. There is just imbalances. But you can not make a product out of that...
Second: There are many new discoveries made about substances science did not see any value in or did not know before. It is hybris to believe we have come to an end (or even have gotten far) in this process of understanding nature.
Third: Our bodies (incl. digesting organs) have adapted over a long time to the types of foods we consume (not a proof but an indicator that condensing them could be not suited to our bodies).
Who profits from such believes that foods can be condensed is the supplement industry.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 11:38:26 pm by delulo »

Offline arhag

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Re: 2020: A Call For DApps & DAO's
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2014, 12:09:17 am »
Quote
My intention is not at all to diminish what you are doing. It sounds really cool. But I am interested to see what your thoughts are on something like Soylent? I mean in some sense it is a very depressing way forward for humanity. People enjoy eating fresh natural food. But there is a lot of efficiency to be gained by taking advantage of economies of scale to farm nutrients and then convert the nutrition into a form that can travel really well over long distances without spoiling. And I don't even think it would need to travel that far. Someday in the future, it could be possible to grow the nutrients in well-controlled, large bio-factories powered by nuclear power located not too far away from major population centers.
This is a bit off topic and has nothing to do with Gingerbread's DAC proposal.
It is a myth that food can be enhanced by braking it down into its "essential" parts where after only the valuable parts are taken and put into a product (powder or liquid).
A few things to mention are:
If we take away some parts, what are the parts we don't need? Mostly fibers and water are left out which are crucial too. There is nothing not crucial in natural foods. There is just imbalances. But you can not make a product out of that...
Second: There are many new discoveries made about substances science did not see any value in or did not know before. It is hybris to believe we have come to an end (or even have gotten far) in this process of understanding nature.
Third: Our bodies (incl. digesting organs) have adapted over a long time to the types of foods we consume (not a proof but an indicator that condensing them could be not suited to our bodies).
Who profits from such believes that foods can be condensed is the supplement industry.

The parts we don't need are the excess that the body must dispose of either through urine or feces or sweat. Some amount of fiber is also necessary it seems. There is also the worry of building up the excess in the body (hypertoxicity). The idea is to get the balance right (at least good enough) for each human to minimize the waste and negative consequences, and to do this at a low cost.

I am not claiming we know everything about nutrition. My only claim is that we cannot learn more without scientific experimentation. To the extent people are voluntarily willing to try these sorts of diets that have very precise measurements of the nutrients contained within, we can learn a lot about what we still do not know about the human body's needs. That is after all how we learned about so many vitamins (people suffered from malnutrition because their diet wasn't giving them the essential vitamins they needed, and it was only after investigating the reason behind their suffering that we were able to learn that fact and improve our understanding of the biology).

You are right that this is getting off topic. So, perhaps we should carry this conversation into the random discussion sub-forum if people are still interested to continue.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 12:14:30 am by arhag »

Offline G1ng3rBr34dM4n

Re: 2020: A Call For DApps & DAO's
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2014, 12:18:36 am »
To prevent hijacking this thread, directing discussion with regards to Future Tech Farm DAC proposal here:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8997.msg116623#msg116623

Thanks to Tom for starting this call for DACs!


Offline santaclause102

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Re: 2020: A Call For DApps & DAO's
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2014, 10:44:04 am »
Took the natural vs. engineered food controversy here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9018.msg116798#msg116798