Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Bytemaster and Stan discuss what exactly their thoughts and intentions are.  (Read 1060 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile

This was the mumble session held recently so that Dan could vocalize his thoughts and hopefully alleviate a lot of the misinformation floating about.

https://soundcloud.com/beyond-bitcoin-hangouts/mumble-emergency-hangout-bytemaster-explains-his-proposal-and-answers-2014-10-19

I know others have posted this already, but I am just trying to make it as obvious as possible given all considerations.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 02:00:37 AM by gamey »
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline Method-X

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1131
  • VIRAL
    • View Profile
    • Learn to code
  • BTS: methodx
Nice work gamey, thanks for posting this so soon. We should get rid of the "vote bitapphire" ad at the top of the forum and use the space for these type of announcements.

Offline fuzzy

Nice work gamey, thanks for posting this so soon. We should get rid of the "vote bitapphire" ad at the top of the forum and use the space for these type of announcements.

Yeh good job.  I haven't listened to it.  Should I spend time tonight editing it or have you already finished Gamey?
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Nice work gamey, thanks for posting this so soon. We should get rid of the "vote bitapphire" ad at the top of the forum and use the space for these type of announcements.

Yeh good job.  I haven't listened to it.  Should I spend time tonight editing it or have you already finished Gamey?

I am not sure it needs editing.  I mean there is 24 minutes without Bytemaster that might could be chopped off, but I'm not sure it matters enough. If you have a desire to do it, then please do.  Sounds pretty decent for the most part.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline liondani

Nice work gamey, thanks for posting this so soon. We should get rid of the "vote bitapphire" ad at the top of the forum and use the space for these type of announcements.
lol

+5

Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D

  https://bitshares.OPENLEDGER.info/?r=GREECE  | You are in Control | BUY | SELL | SHORT | SWAP | LOAN | TRADE |  

Offline Gentso1

Nice work gamey, thanks for posting this so soon. We should get rid of the "vote bitapphire" ad at the top of the forum and use the space for these type of announcements.
+5%

great job gamey, something like this maybe should be left raw.

Offline tonyk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3309
    • View Profile
Raw is good!

If you let him edit it, he will make even bigger fool of myself (and possibly a few others)... and I take good enough care of it as it is.

Raw is good!

               
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline fuzzy

Raw is good!
             

that's what she said?  :D
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline luckybit

This was the mumble session held recently so that Dan could vocalize his thoughts and hopefully alleviate a lot of the misinformation floating about.

https://soundcloud.com/beyond-bitcoin-hangouts/mumble-emergency-hangout-bytemaster-explains-his-proposal-and-answers-2014-10-19

I know others have posted this already, but I am just trying to make it as obvious as possible given all considerations.

I never doubted the intentions of Dan or Stan. I also do not doubt their skills or intellectual capabilities.

Dilution is a technique which I define as a loan from shareholders to the receivers who would be the developers in this case.

1) The shareholders expect that the loaned buying power will result in an increase in their buying power.
2) There has to be a way for shareholders to vote on proposals because not every plan is a good plan.
3) There has to be a way to accurately measure whether or not the buying power of shareholders has increased or decreased after a specified period of time.

Basically when a bank or board of directors is given resources it is with strings attached. Those strings usually are that the board of directors meet some agreed upon objectives. The reason board of directors don't dilute shareholders over and over is because their jobs are at risk if they are foolish in their decision making.

So I can support dilution if there is a way to explain clearly what shareholders are lending to developers (buying power). It should be explained to shareholders where this buying power is going and exactly what it is going to be used for.  It should be a proposal presented to shareholders and that proposal must be voted on. Finally there should be a way to measure the success or failure of the proposal in terms of how much buying power that proposal added.

Dilution isn't bad unless it's unlimited and with no strings attached. If it's limited, treated as a loan, and the goal of it is to increase buying power then I'd be all for it. For example if they dilute but design some functionality which increases the burn rate then it would only be temporary because there is a planned buy-back. Another example is if there is dilution but that dilution dramatically raises the market cap so that buying power can return then that could work too.

But you have to figure out what shareholders want to use to measure success of failure of a proposal.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline luckybit

If the past-deadline AGS/PTS are given shares in Bitshares X then is the plan to set it up so that their shares don't become liquid until 2016 so that they'd have it but not at the same time?

If done like that then you can lessen the impact but I still don't prefer the idea. The idea is you want a lot of stakeholders but you don't want them to be able to dump. You want stakeholders but you don't want late stakeholders to potentially hurt or interfere with the current stakeholders.

I think you could set it up so there are different vesting periods for different generations of stakeholders so that it favors the easliest stakeholders. This way if you're launching a new DAC then you could set it up so that after 4 years a dilution takes place in the form of an airdrop to a select group of Bitcoin users who donated AGS after the deadline.  The idea is to extend AGS but punish those who contribute late with the vesting period but not make the vesting period so far  away that they'll lose interest.

4 years is interesting because Bitcoin works similar. Block reward halving every 4 years.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline Shentist

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1605
    • View Profile
    • metaexchange
  • BTS: shentist
let's do it!

why?

1. will reduce the confusion what you need to know and to own to take your share in the system.
2. only one chain with bytemasters attention
3. focus our community as well

i am in favor of 80% / 10% / 10% BTSX / AGS / PTS

we could expect with the merged BitShares Chain less new projects, because we try to run as much as possible in BTS. So it is in the interest of PTS and AGS holders to get a grip in the new combined BTS, because bytemasters efforts will only be here.

so the AGS and PTS holders will change the expected shares of 10% and 10% in future DACS without Bytemaster, but get a piece in the main DAC with bytemaster on board. so they can expect much from BitShares only project in the future and get a smaller part in 3rd party projects. But with increasing BTS prices they can sell for good money and buy their share in the 3rd party DACs.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 09:48:49 PM by Shentist »

Offline xh3

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
    • Bit-Cents
When it comes time to sell this to the public, sell it as a merger or acquisition to further the *shares in a company* metaphor!

Offline Empirical1.1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
    • View Profile
Nice work gamey, thanks for posting this so soon. We should get rid of the "vote bitapphire" ad at the top of the forum and use the space for these type of announcements.
lol

+5

Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D

+5 I think they're doing great work but I've mentioned before soliciting votes in such a key spot is actually PR negative for them as that space could be put to better use. Anyway it's a small detail in the grand scheme of things.

Offline mf-tzo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1695
    • View Profile
I just heard the mumble and these are my thoughts (which haven't changed much from the mumble session):

1) Create one DAC to avoid competing is essential and come up with a proposal to be implemented before the 5th November would be really good.

2) I understand that VOTE will be integrated to BTSX and will merge to the new DAC by buying out AGS-PTS. How will you do that? VOTE shares have been already allocated and there might start trading VOTE shares on the exchanges soon.

3) Will DNS be merged as well? How? DNS are currently traded. I now I am confused as  to sell DNS for BTSX now or keep DNS. I am sure others have the same dilemma. I don't think it is fair to take current market caps for the integration because as the situation is now BTSX is x10 DNS. DNS are obviously undervalued since there is not much utility yet.

4) Will Music be independent? Same comments apply regarding valuations.

5) Final and most important is the buy out of PTS-AGS. I don't think it is fair to put on the same basket PTS-AGS. I don't think it is fair to say that PTS = AGS market cap = c$5 mil. Anyone holding PTS had liquidity. They could buy PTS pre-snapshot and sell them thereafter ending up to with very small trading losses or even make profits from trading and earning the same shares as AGS in DACs. AGS didn't have that benefit. AGS shareholders gave up their liquidity and do not dump their shares whenever the DAC is launched. One can see that already from DNS trading which whenever someone is dumping someone else buys the next days, so the market cap is stable even there is no utility yet.

Based on point 5 above I would say that for AGS donated after the 28th snapshot the buy out ratio from AGS - PTS to include them in the new BTS should be close to the pre snapshot i.e. PTS: AGS 1:3

Now since we do not want people to dump their new BTS shares from PTS-AGS capital infusion, I wouldn't mind not to be able to claim those shares for a couple of months 3-6 months and take them away again liquidity. Longer period is not a good option,not because of fear that people will dump their shares (since I am pretty sure if everything goes as planned no one is going to dump) but mostly as a security if things don't work as planned, it is not fair to have people not being able to react again and protect themselves from shocks by hedging in bitassets.

All in all, I am pretty confident that you guys will come with a fair solution that will take us all to the moon but please consider my points and come up with a detailed proposal (with actual n0 of shares and clear distribution), reach a consensus as soon as possible and let's move on. There shouldn't be more delays, vague discussions, assumptions and FUD that scare people away.








Offline bitcoinerS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 584
    • View Profile
I hope there is a way to get rid of these annoying background noises throughout every mumble session.
 They keep making it very hard to listen and are quite distracting!
>>> approve bitcoiners

 

Google+