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Offline alphaBar

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The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« on: October 24, 2014, 02:09:47 AM »

To any developers who are watching the current fiasco unfold, I have a suggestion for creating a DAC that I believe has a decent shot at beating the superDAC with minimal effort and expense. The Bitshares superDAC has the following weaknesses:

* The threshold for inflation is too low. By allowing inflation of up to 8% perpetually in the protocol, you end up with a situation where large stakeholders are able to "write their own paycheck" for lack of a better term. The biggest stakeholders in the superDAC will be I3, and for all intents and purposes they will be setting their own pay. It would take an almost impossible amount of stake (if you consider the avg participation rate) to "disagree" with their payrate and to vote them out. Any currency (even Bitcoin) allows for inflation. The difference is that inflation is not baked into the protocol, and would therefore require a far greater "stake" to implement (by modifying the protocol). Bitshares has ignored one of the main principles of crypto community: that scarcity should be (almost) inviolable.
* The second weakness of the superDAC is distribution. AGS distribution has already alienated a huge number of Bitcoin purists who are adamantly against "IPO coins". I don't necessarily agree with their philosophy, but there is a large segment of crypto users who will only invest in coins that have no IPO, no premine, and ONLY PoW distribution. The chaos that is unfolding with the superDAC has amplified the problem, possibly causing irreparable harm in PR and public distrust. I'm not speaking to intentions here. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions...
* The last weakness of the superDAC is what I call "abuse of the DAC analogy". Let's face it, the killer app in the crypto-space has always been and will always be one thing: currency. And to be a good store of value, any coin that maintains the sanctity of scarce supply at the protocol layer, will be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. What Bitshares gains in "marketing funds" they will lose in investor confidence (from the very investors they are "marketing" to). It is true that running a DAC like a business will result in a more agile and adaptive token. But I would argue that we should run our "business" with the aim of positioning ourselves as the best currency and store of value (the killer app). As I mentioned earlier, I believe the crypto-space is searching for a "unit of account" that will inevitably become something of a global reserve upon which everything else is built. The coin that wins this battle will NOT be Bitcoin (primarily due to the pitfalls of PoW) and it will not be the coin with the most advanced features (see Nxt). The coin that becomes the defacto world reserve must be appealing to governments and serious investors and must be perceived as (i) fairly distributed, (ii) scarce (non-inflationary), (iii) efficient (DPOS), and (iv) secure. Any feature built on top of this coin cannot be done at the expense of these 4 things. The superDAC has failed in distribution/allocation and scarcity.

Here is my proposal:

Someone should fork the Bitshares Toolkit and create a new Bitshares PTS that launches on November 5th (the date of snapshot). The new PTS should have nothing but the core Toolkit functionality (DPOS+TITAN). With DPOS technology, no inflation, and pure proof of work distribution, I argue that the new Bitshares PTS has a shot at dethroning the superDAC.

This is an experiment that can be conducted with minimal cost. The new PTS can always benefit from improvements made to the Toolkit, and if PTS wins I am sure Dan and the rest of the devs from I3 will jump on board (since they will have a large stake in PTS as well). If it loses then nothing much is lost.

****Edit: To my surprise, this has generated a lot of interest. Please DM me if you'd like to contribute to making it happen.
****Edit2: Organizing a mailing list for those who are interested: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10540.0
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 06:43:27 PM by alphaBar »

Offline Rune

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2014, 02:14:47 AM »
Good luck

Offline alphaBar

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2014, 02:26:09 AM »
From what I'm reading it almost seems as if you're interested in something completely different than what Bitshares is. It's all there for the competition to make the best they can and compete. For me I am still MUCH more interested in where Bitshares superdac is going.

You may be right, but think of it like as hedge against the superDAC. It costs nothing to implement, the allocation is 100% to members of this community, and if it fails you've lost nothing. There is no reason why DPOS should be tied to the success or failure of the superDAC. DPOS is hands down the best consensus algorithm, and it should be attempted in a pure and agnostic token with strong scarcity and fair distribution.

Offline oco101

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2014, 02:28:56 AM »
To any developers who are watching the current fiasco unfold, I have a suggestion for creating a DAC that I believe has a decent shot at beating the superDAC with minimal effort and expense. The Bitshares superDAC has the following weaknesses:

* The threshold for inflation is too low. By allowing inflation of up to 8% perpetually in the protocol, you end up with a situation where large stakeholders are able to "write their own paycheck" for lack of a better term. The biggest stakeholders in the superDAC will be I3, and for all intents and purposes they will be setting their own pay. It would take an almost impossible amount of stake (if you consider the avg participation rate) to "disagree" with their payrate and to vote them out. Any currency (even Bitcoin) allows for inflation. The difference is that inflation is not baked into the protocol, and would therefore require a far greater "stake" to implement (by modifying the protocol). Bitshares has ignored one of the main principles of crypto community: that scarcity should be (almost) inviolable.
* The second weakness of the superDAC is distribution. AGS distribution has already alienated a huge number of Bitcoin purists who are adamantly against "IPO coins". I don't necessarily agree with their philosophy, but there is a large segment of crypto users who will only invest in coins that have no IPO, no premine, and ONLY PoW distribution. The chaos that is unfolding with the superDAC has amplified the problem, possibly causing irreparable harm in PR and public distrust. I'm not speaking to intentions here. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions...
* The last weakness of the superDAC is what I call "abuse of the DAC analogy". Let's face it, the killer app in the crypto-space has always been and will always be one thing: currency. And to be a good store of value, any coin that maintains the sanctity of scarce supply at the protocol layer, will be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. What Bitshares gains in "marketing funds" they will lose in investor confidence (from the very investors they are "marketing" to). It is true that running a DAC like a business will result in a more agile and adaptive token. But I would argue that we should run our "business" with the aim of positioning ourselves as the best currency and store of value (the killer app). As I mentioned earlier, I believe the crypto-space is searching for a "unit of account" that will inevitably become something of a global reserve upon which everything else is built. The coin that wins this battle will NOT be Bitcoin (primarily due to the pitfalls of PoW) and it will not be the coin with the most advanced features (see Nxt). The coin that becomes the defacto world reserve must be appealing to governments and serious investors and must be perceived as (i) fairly distributed, (ii) scarce (non-inflationary), (iii) efficient (DPOS), and (iv) secure. Any feature built on top of this coin cannot be done at the expense of these 4 things. The superDAC has failed in distribution/allocation and scarcity.

Here is my proposal:

Someone should fork the Bitshares Toolkit and create a new Bitshares PTS that launches on November 5th (the date of snapshot). The new PTS should have nothing but the core Toolkit functionality (DPOS+TITAN). With DPOS technology, no inflation, and pure proof of work distribution, I argue that the new Bitshares PTS has a shot at dethroning the superDAC.

This is an experiment that can be conducted with minimal cost. The new PTS can always benefit from improvements made to the Toolkit, and if PTS wins I am sure Dan and the rest of the devs from I3 will jump on board (since they will have a large stake in PTS as well). If it loses then nothing much is lost.

Lol lol is this a joke or you really believe it ? I'm mean for real take a deep breath  and please don't talk about POW as a solution to anything. I know only one person on this forum that could not get over AGS, and has a large stake of PTS and for some reason he's still in love with the stupidity of POW. For sure you know who is do you....? He has a writing stile similar to yours too. Fantastic !! But please don't stop spreading your wisdom... We still love you.
As for your DAC please do it I would really like you to do it to prove your brilliant point.

Offline onceuponatime

Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2014, 02:30:25 AM »
Shouldn't this post be moved to "Third Party DACS"?

Offline tonyk

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2014, 02:33:47 AM »
I am fan of this part:

With DPOS technology, no inflation, and pure proof of work distribution, I argue that the new Bitshares PTS has a shot at dethroning the superDAC.

Tell us more about this 'pure proof of work distribution'. I see it as pure CPU mining, no trading allowed and to make the things great it will be done on DPOS chain.

Shouldn't this post be moved to "Third Party DACS"?

... or random discussions.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 02:37:35 AM by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline oco101

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2014, 02:37:04 AM »
This one too is brilliant :

Let's face it, the killer app in the crypto-space has always been and will always be one thing: currency. And to be a good store of value, any coin that maintains the sanctity of scarce supply at the protocol layer, will be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition

Edit : Ohh yeah this DAC will be 6x more powerful then the superDAC why ? Well because ..you know !!!! Ask Op he'll do the math for you.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 02:44:13 AM by oco101 »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2014, 02:44:44 AM »
Lol lol is this a joke or you really believe it ? I'm mean for real take a deep breath  and please don't talk about POW as a solution to anything. I know only one person on this forum that could not get over AGS, and has a large stake of PTS and for some reason he's still in love with the stupidity of POW. For sure you know who is do you....? He has a writing stile similar to yours too. Fantastic !! But please don't stop spreading your wisdom... We still love you.
As for your DAC please do it I would really like you to do it to prove your brilliant point.

Not sure what you're talking about, I hate proof of work. The only thing that PoW does okay is distribution, nothing else. My proposal was to simply convert PTS to a standalone DPOS chain. Please explain how this is promotion of PoW? If you think there is a better distribution mechanism, please let us know what that is (hint: there isn't one). IPO is used primarily for funding, not distribution.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 02:46:34 AM by alphaBar »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2014, 02:46:12 AM »
Shouldn't this post be moved to "Third Party DACS"?

No less relevant than all the other discussions about what to do with PTS/AGS/BTSX.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2014, 02:48:11 AM »
This one too is brilliant :

Let's face it, the killer app in the crypto-space has always been and will always be one thing: currency. And to be a good store of value, any coin that maintains the sanctity of scarce supply at the protocol layer, will be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition

Edit : Ohh yeah this DAC will be 6x more powerful then the superDAC why ? Well because ..you know !!!! Ask Op he'll do the math for you.

The best thing would be if it magically improved your ability to comprehend basic English. But alas, "one chain to rule them all" is doomed to failure...

Offline yellowecho

Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2014, 02:50:14 AM »
I'm interested in building and investing in the best decentralized autonomous company the market can offer.  Company mergers are extremely beneficial when entering new markets and introducing new products via R&D as it can:
1) Streamline administrative functions
2) Increase market share
3) Lower operational costs
4) Offer financial leveraging
5) Improve profitability
6) Increase earnings per share.

The merger will be beneficial to all stakeholders and continues to lower the barrier to entry.  The merger raises my confidence in BitShares the company and the leadership of I3, the core developers, and the marketing team because it demonstrates they understand the above and how to build value.  I wish you luck with your proposal because you're going to need it competing against such a team.
696c6f766562726f776e696573

Offline carpet ride

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2014, 02:50:19 AM »

* The last weakness of the superDAC is what I call "abuse of the DAC analogy". Let's face it, the killer app in the crypto-space has always been and will always be one thing: currency. And to be a good store of value, any coin that maintains the sanctity of scarce supply at the protocol layer, will be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. What Bitshares gains in "marketing funds" they will lose in investor confidence (from the very investors they are "marketing" to). It is true that running a DAC like a business will result in a more agile and adaptive token. But I would argue that we should run our "business" with the aim of positioning ourselves as the best currency and store of value (the killer app). As I mentioned earlier, I believe the crypto-space is searching for a "unit of account" that will inevitably become something of a global reserve upon which everything else is built. The coin that wins this battle will NOT be Bitcoin (primarily due to the pitfalls of PoW) and it will not be the coin with the most advanced features (see Nxt). The coin that becomes the defacto world reserve must be appealing to governments and serious investors and must be perceived as (i) fairly distributed, (ii) scarce (non-inflationary), (iii) efficient (DPOS), and (iv) secure. Any feature built on top of this coin cannot be done at the expense of these 4 things. The superDAC has failed in distribution/allocation and scarcity.

It seems your premise is BTS is a coin or something like Bitcoin.  I would prescribe more reading to understand the importance of free markets via the block chain and the benefits of the profitable-apps that are being built in to BTS that make it a value creator for its owners and users.  Perhaps the wiki and all of BM's posts. 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 02:53:17 AM by Gonzo »
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Offline alphaBar

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2014, 02:51:25 AM »
I am fan of this part:

With DPOS technology, no inflation, and pure proof of work distribution, I argue that the new Bitshares PTS has a shot at dethroning the superDAC.
Tell us more about this 'pure proof of work distribution'. I see it as pure CPU mining, no trading allowed and to make the things great it will be done on DPOS chain.

In case you didn't know, Bitshares PTS used a 100% proof of work distribution. It was simply a statement of fact. Your comments about CPU mining and "no trading allowed" are unintelligible so I'm sorry I can't help you there.

Offline oco101

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2014, 02:51:36 AM »
This one too is brilliant :

Let's face it, the killer app in the crypto-space has always been and will always be one thing: currency. And to be a good store of value, any coin that maintains the sanctity of scarce supply at the protocol layer, will be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition

Edit : Ohh yeah this DAC will be 6x more powerful then the superDAC why ? Well because ..you know !!!! Ask Op he'll do the math for you.

The best thing would be if it magically improved your ability to comprehend basic English. But alas, "one chain to rule them all" is doomed to failure...
You know you right I don't get your English but I like your math. So you superDAC killer is how many chains ?

Offline alphaBar

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Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2014, 02:56:50 AM »
I'm interested in building and investing in the best decentralized autonomous company the market can offer.  Company mergers are extremely beneficial when entering new markets and introducing new products via R&D as it can:
1) Streamline administrative functions
2) Increase market share
3) Lower operational costs
4) Offer financial leveraging
5) Improve profitability
6) Increase earnings per share.

The merger will be beneficial to all stakeholders and continues to lower the barrier to entry.  The merger raises my confidence in BitShares the company and the leadership of I3, the core developers, and the marketing team because it demonstrates they understand the above and how to build value.  I wish you luck with your proposal because you're going to need it competing against such a team.

This is certainly one view of the world, and it may very well be the right one. I would argue that there is no inherent relationship between the Toolkit and the philosophical leanings of I3. One could just as easily fork the toolkit with a coin that maintains the core principles I've outlined above (different from those of the superDAC, but well suited for PTS), still derive value from the work of I3 developers, and possibly provide value to both the developers and the community at large if it succeeds. At the very least the new PTS would be better suited for sharedropping than the superDAC (for obvious reasons). Not much lost in attempting this, but possibly much to be gained.

 

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