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Offline alphaBar

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A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« on: October 25, 2014, 08:35:22 AM »

Further to this post, the killer app in the crypto-space has always been and will always be one thing: currency. The Bitshares superDAC has attributes that make it poorly suited for use as a global currency including weak scarcity and suboptimal distribution.

Any cryptocurrency hoping to dethrone Bitcoin and ascend to become a global currency must be stable, predictable, fairly distributed, and non-inflationary. If you have any interest in PTS, join me in forking the Bitshares Toolkit and creating a new DPOS version of Bitshares PTS that launches using the November 5th snapshot.

To start the discussion, I'd like to put together a mailing list. Please PM me if you're interested.

Offline freebit

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Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2014, 09:17:57 AM »
It sounds good.

Offline yoo

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Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2014, 09:24:30 AM »
interesting, mark here

i am a web developer maybe provide some help.

Offline mimitie

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Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2014, 09:30:38 AM »
mark here  +5% +5%

Offline biophil

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Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2014, 06:49:13 PM »
Your plan for this is featureless DPOS+TITAN, right? A plain and simple fixed-supply store of value? Why not piggyback the network effect of BTS and just issue it as a user-issued asset on BTS? You'd be able to achieve your goals that way without the hassle of a second blockchain.

Edit: What's your dividend plan: are you planning to burn fees, or redistribute them as yield (like the current BitAsset scheme in BTSX)? That could impact whether a UIA on BTS would do the trick for you.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 06:51:36 PM by biophil »

Offline fuzzy

Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2014, 07:33:32 PM »
Variation, imho, is good and gives those who feel strongly in the minority against the move to the BTS superDAC to have an outlet that willnbring more value to the space.  Freedom...do you smell it in the air?  Damn it smells good...
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2014, 07:42:08 PM »
Yes a separate DPOS crypto-currency is now viable which will surpass Bitcoin but probably pale in comparison to BitShares even in the medium term imo.  I've already pondered this possibility in previous posts and came up with 'ATHENA.'

Quote
ATHENA - The goddess of wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, mathematics, strength, strategy, the arts, crafts, and skill.

ATHENA is a crypto-money not a crypto-equity.

A Decentralised Autonomous Guardianship (DAG)

A DAG is defined by its initial supply rules and has them enshrined it its constitution - It therefore becomes a digital money that will struggle to be changed even by the majority because it's supply rules are what explicitly defines it. A crypto-money that is built on the principal that it's a well 'money'.

It doesn't have BitAssets to start, just a DPOS chain and wallet. It's very simple to understand for the alt-coin market. It's a digital limited money.

Athena can replace Bitcoin. It has no inflation, it is decentralised, anonymous, fast & even profitable. (However it ceases to be digital money when its supply rules can be changed easily by shareholders, then it is a company not a money.)

Many BTSX holders who like the idea of a digital money may increase their snapshot position in Athena. If Dilution is added to BTSX, more of the digital money crowd will like it. If dilution is added and the sharedrop fails, then definitely they will move to Athena. You may even have in the future customers feeling more comfortable having their BitAssets backed and controlled by ATHENA, a crypto-money vs. BTSX a crypto-equity which is subject to the short term whims of the majority of shareholders. So Athena could add BitAssets too and still function as a a money, DAG, provided shareholders were limited & could only act within the initial supply rules on which Athena was founded. 

Even with more limited resources a good form of money attracts demand and infrastructure around it like gold and even Bitcoin was best at it's job for a while. (However a G(uardian)POS crypto-money that is decentralised, fast, profitable and anonymous is far superior to Bitcoin.)

Also if you are someone that loves mankind and feels human controlled monetary systems often exploit society, even with a gold standard, then you may see the benefit to humanity of trying to create a decentralised, anonymous, fast digital money with no inflation that is founded on the initial rules with an enshrined constitution designed to protect the easily exploited from themselves for as long as possible and who knows perhaps even create something ultimately that does that job better than gold.   

You will probably need to set aside 10-20% of the starting shares and release them over a 5 year period to fund the crypto-currency. After that it should be profitable and popular. Thereby able to self fund as well as attract third party development and infrastructure.

Remember though Vote DAC may allow identification of individual users, so a provable initial distribution crypto-currency competitor will be able to spin off BTS anyway...

 +5% for the initiative. Put me on the list, I'm happy to look at a DPOS crypto-currency investment.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 07:48:45 PM by Empirical1.1 »

Offline yellowecho

Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2014, 09:44:57 PM »
The Bitshares superDAC has attributes that make it poorly suited for use as a global currency including weak scarcity and suboptimal distribution.

Then it's a good thing that the BitShares superDAC isn't a currency and isn't intended to be used as a currency!  The currency in BitShares is bitUSD (and bitCNY) while BTS is a crypto-equity.  I still fail to see what value your proposed fork brings besides a different distribution model which itself doesn't add value at all.  Don't get me wrong, as a PTS, AGS, and BTSX holder I support getting free stake and would likely benefit from such a fork but this just seems to be muddying the water.

Also, I fail to see what this DAC offers that bitBTC and the like doesn't already.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 09:47:47 PM by yellowecho »
696c6f766562726f776e696573

Offline alphaBar

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Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2014, 10:17:57 PM »
Your plan for this is featureless DPOS+TITAN, right? A plain and simple fixed-supply store of value? Why not piggyback the network effect of BTS and just issue it as a user-issued asset on BTS? You'd be able to achieve your goals that way without the hassle of a second blockchain.

Edit: What's your dividend plan: are you planning to burn fees, or redistribute them as yield (like the current BitAsset scheme in BTSX)? That could impact whether a UIA on BTS would do the trick for you.

Yes, featureless DPOS+TITAN for now. Later I think we can own the currency and commodity-type BitAssets and let BTS own the user-issued assets. BTS folks may disagree with that but I think that makes the most sense given the different properties of each DAC. For now I don't want to position this as a competitor to BTS.

One of the biggest issues I'm trying to leapfrog here is the allocation and distribution stigma. By sticking with 100% PTS distribution we may be able to onboard some of the "purists" who believe that proof of work is the only fair distribution method (it is the only provable one, that's for sure). I want to emphasize that this is not a new DAC and therefore there will be no changes to allocation of funds. This is simply an "upgrade" to PTS and should be honored as such.

I propose that the delegate fee structure be the same as BTSX - absolutely no inflation and delegate pay ranging from 0-100% of transaction fees. I think most fee structures (including BTSX) are arbitrary or flawed in their incentive structure. The simplest solution is to eventually eliminate fees entirely and I have some ideas on how that can be achieved, but I wont pollute this discussion with any more detail on that.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 10:20:02 PM by alphaBar »

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2014, 10:25:50 PM »
The Bitshares superDAC has attributes that make it poorly suited for use as a global currency including weak scarcity and suboptimal distribution.

Then it's a good thing that the BitShares superDAC isn't a currency and isn't intended to be used as a currency!  The currency in BitShares is bitUSD (and bitCNY) while BTS is a crypto-equity.  I still fail to see what value your proposed fork brings besides a different distribution model which itself doesn't add value at all.  Don't get me wrong, as a PTS, AGS, and BTSX holder I support getting free stake and would likely benefit from such a fork but this just seems to be muddying the water.

Also, I fail to see what this DAC offers that bitBTC and the like doesn't already.

Yes the Super DAC isn't designed to be a currency, that's why there's a gap in the market for one.

Fiat currencies are flawed for numerous reasons. (They have a lifespan of 35 years, suffer from constant inflation and controlled by central banks.)

Bitcoin is a weak currency, it is centralised, has poor distribution and expensive inflation used to pay pointless mining.

Gold is better, however its price can be and is artificially suppressed, particularly right now to help prop up & mask the currently collapsing fiat money system.

So there is an opportunity for a decentralised crypto-currency. It is a medium to long term goal & may ultimately be a great benefit to mankind if it gets it right.

Offline amencon

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Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2014, 10:51:55 PM »
Variation, imho, is good and gives those who feel strongly in the minority against the move to the BTS superDAC to have an outlet that willnbring more value to the space.  Freedom...do you smell it in the air?  Damn it smells good...
Agree completely.  Thanks for taking the initiative alpha.  I'll be following and supporting both forks.

Offline yellowecho

Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2014, 10:59:19 PM »
So there is an opportunity for a decentralised crypto-currency. It is a medium to long term goal & may ultimately be a great benefit to mankind if it gets it right.

For the sake of argument, let's just say you're correct and there are no good currencies available and you're able to create one and there's a market for it.  What's it priced in?  If BTC is required to purchase it then the currency's price movements will be vulnerable to BTC.  If you're somehow able to get an on/off ramp then what's the incentive to hold or use the currency if it doesn't earn interest?  Why would people want to use it?  And what's to prevent the currency from being listed on the BTS market as a bitAsset and pulling the rug out from under it by actually offering interest?
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Offline alphaBar

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Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2014, 11:53:28 PM »
So there is an opportunity for a decentralised crypto-currency. It is a medium to long term goal & may ultimately be a great benefit to mankind if it gets it right.

For the sake of argument, let's just say you're correct and there are no good currencies available and you're able to create one and there's a market for it.  What's it priced in?  If BTC is required to purchase it then the currency's price movements will be vulnerable to BTC.  If you're somehow able to get an on/off ramp then what's the incentive to hold or use the currency if it doesn't earn interest?  Why would people want to use it?  And what's to prevent the currency from being listed on the BTS market as a bitAsset and pulling the rug out from under it by actually offering interest?

In the short term, the new PTS would be correlated with Bitcoin in terms of price just like any other crypto. There is a lot of money on the sidelines just waiting to jump into cryptocurrency, but worried about the flaws of PoW mining centralization and inefficiency. If a superior alternative came about, it would gradually dissolve any price relationship to BTC. I consider all of the things built on top of the core functionality of the Bitshares Toolkit to be secondary in terms of their importance to "big money" investors. The primary factors are those I have outlined above.

Serious investors are not looking for a crypto equivalent of a CD so they can have a 3% return on their liquid cash. They are trying to find the horse that will win this race to global adoption. I like the concept of BitAssets and I think they will play a huge part in bridging that gap, but let's not confuse them for the end result. In fact I think currency and commodity based BitAssets are better suited for implementation (maybe canonically) in a stable and reliable currency-DAC, while BTS is probably better suited for user-issued BitAssets. Anything issued as a BitAsset on the BTS platform will suffer from any weaknesses inherent in the underlying token itself.

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2014, 11:56:36 PM »
So there is an opportunity for a decentralised crypto-currency. It is a medium to long term goal & may ultimately be a great benefit to mankind if it gets it right.

For the sake of argument, let's just say you're correct and there are no good currencies available and you're able to create one and there's a market for it.  What's it priced in?  If BTC is required to purchase it then the currency's price movements will be vulnerable to BTC.  If you're somehow able to get an on/off ramp then what's the incentive to hold or use the currency if it doesn't earn interest?  Why would people want to use it?  And what's to prevent the currency from being listed on the BTS market as a bitAsset and pulling the rug out from under it by actually offering interest?

- On ramps are possible for popular digital currencies to get and will perhaps become easier over time.

- There is a limit to the demand a derivative can soak up before the market views the underlying asset as undervalued, and therefore sees the derivative as a poor proxy. In commodities this gap is extremely wide as the value is hard to determine & the underlying physical is often hard to realistically trade but in a fairly frictionless digital economy the damage a BitAsset with interest can do is limited. Also as BTS rate of growth slows so too will the interest it offers.

Think of the digital currency as BitShares but with the disadvantage of being 6 months behind & having a much smaller initial market. The advantages are that it will have no/defined inflation & will only copy the best of BitShares and avoid its mistakes.

Most importantly it will limit the mistakes of human consensus. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10251.msg134519#msg134519 As an example, the current BitShares deal is a good one for shareholders but some people's short term thinking and inability to see other perspectives (like the fact that the real value is the key talent like Bytemaster, everyone who gets to be a part of that is winning.)  puts massive long term rewards (less than a year away) in possible jeopardy. Which is why for all our collective wisdom, our best long term store of value & a $7 trillion + market is a lump of metal, simply because our ability to manipulate its supply & mess it up is limited. Which is why a crypto-money passing BitShares & any other contender is an inevitability. Also the long term could play out very quickly in this space.

Just my personal opinion.

Edit: I'm not for this PTS play necessarily, just going off on my own tangent here.

Also BitShares + dilution is definitely the best play. It is the pioneer and needs to be an adaptable and flexible company. It should help it gain network effect, constantly bring in the best talent and become the market leader. At some point though the rate of change and growth in this space will start to stabilise. At which point a crypto-currency which will have copied the best features will be at less of a disadvantage and may ultimately surpass its rivals for the reasons listed above.




« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 12:31:24 AM by Empirical1.1 »

Offline arhag

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Re: A new currency DAC - the future of Bitshares PTS
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2014, 12:19:31 AM »
Further to this post, the killer app in the crypto-space has always been and will always be one thing: currency. The Bitshares superDAC has attributes that make it poorly suited for use as a global currency including weak scarcity and suboptimal distribution.

Any cryptocurrency hoping to dethrone Bitcoin and ascend to become a global currency must be stable, predictable, fairly distributed, and non-inflationary. If you have any interest in PTS, join me in forking the Bitshares Toolkit and creating a new DPOS version of Bitshares PTS that launches using the November 5th snapshot.

Repeat after me: BTS is not a currency, BTS is not a currency, BTS is not a currency. The fact that BTS can be diluted is irrelevant, because BTS is not a currency. If people want a currency they should be using BitUSD, BitEUR, etc. The goal of a currency should be price stability (not too inflationary and not too deflationary). If you want an asset that isn't in the control of central banks you can even use BitGLD (even though that is not as stable in price).

I think BTS is well distributed enough to ensure that the BitShares DAC will become sufficiently decentralized and won't be in the hands of a tiny group of individuals that can be corrupted. It will become even more decentralized over time as the stake is distributed to more (new) hands. Either a BitCurrency, BitGLD, or maybe BitCPI on top of this superDAC will have the properties that you are looking for. You don't have to care about what the BTS stakeholders are deciding to spend their diluted BTS on.

That all said, you have every right to fork the BitShares toolkit and compete. So, good luck with that.

 

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