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Offline bytemaster

My preferred solution for delegates
« on: November 11, 2014, 09:56:38 PM »

My preferred solution for delegates:

1) They are trusted and able to maintain the network
2) They publish a budget on who they plan to fund and generally don't do work themselves.
3) They coordinate with other delegates.

If the role of delegates is to manage up to 1% of the spendable budget then we can hire many delegates.   Lets keep it really simple, if you don't know how to run a node ask for funding from a delegate that does run a node.   If the delegate thinks it is worth while and won't cause him to lose his spot then he can support you.

Thus at the end of the day you only have to trust that a delegate can make wise evaluations about the performance of the real workers while maintaining a node.



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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline starspirit

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Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2014, 10:03:51 PM »
My preferred solution for delegates:

1) They are trusted and able to maintain the network
2) They publish a budget on who they plan to fund and generally don't do work themselves.
3) They coordinate with other delegates.

If the role of delegates is to manage up to 1% of the spendable budget then we can hire many delegates.   Lets keep it really simple, if you don't know how to run a node ask for funding from a delegate that does run a node.   If the delegate thinks it is worth while and won't cause him to lose his spot then he can support you.

Thus at the end of the day you only have to trust that a delegate can make wise evaluations about the performance of the real workers while maintaining a node.
BM, you could probably post this to a new thread so others can find it.
[Edit: Thanks for moving]
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 01:13:53 AM by starspirit »

Offline pseudoscops

Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2014, 11:06:16 PM »
I too have some concerns about block signing delegates and employees being one and the same thing. Perhaps I need to take more time to understand the proposal.

But as it stands it seems that we are proposing to have only 101 employees or employee representatives and this seems arbitrary and limiting. I get that it is probably a high enough number if we're just talking about block signing delegates securing the network. But for employees?

If BitShares hits the market cap of Bitcoin what would be the maximum that each delegate could earn? My guess based on the $2,500 month that is being bandied about on the current BitShares valuation is that we'd be looking at something like $325,000 per month. Can anyone confirm?

Presumably when we get to this stage there's going to need to be more than one person working for each delegate/employee position otherwise things will starts to look very top heavy in terms of who is being recompensed for work. What  does that look like? Can we move towards something that will allow for transparency and is built in to the codebase? Don't we think this is important? Perhaps not - perhaps it's fine that we just have 101 delegates who effectively become 'Directors/Managers' of various employee divisions within the BitShares ecosystem.  We then just trust them with our votes to employ the right people. But this just doesn't seem granular enough to me and means that the codebase will unnecessarily require the promotion of teams/fiefdoms for every bit of work that is done to build BitShares up going forwar. It means there's no room for the little guy to work alone and be paid directly by the network.

Why don't we just separate out employees and allow for more granularity? Otherwise people not inside the 101 delegate positions who do not want to join an existing team may have to rely on handouts or bounties. Sounds like a precarious position to put yourself in even if you're a dyed in the wool supporter and want to grow the ecosystem. Rockstar employees/leaders such as BM will of course end up leading teams that consist of more than one person, but for others is the requirement strictly necessary?

If we're going to stick with the creation of this chimera of the two things then the only way I can see it working is to have some form of transparent nesting. So I can join one of the 101 'Teams', but everyone can see what what slice of the teams budget I am being allocated for my role within that team. There is some merit in this in that it provides an incentive for smaller guys to get on board with a 'Team' in order to be under the protective wing of one of the 101 trusted delegates/team managers.

It does make me ponder whether this all relies too much on individuals. When whole networks of people come to rely on their income from the 101 delegate positions and the figure-heads who represent those 101 positions can we be sure that everyone will be voting or campaigning for the good of the network or is it more likely to act through self interest. If the two were separate I'd have no problem with them acting in their own self interest, but when it starts to interfere with block signing then it becomes a different matter. Perhaps I'm wrong and that the self interest part is a recognized necessity and this is why the current proposal is what is being suggested.

Am I missing something obvious here? Please feel free to explain if I've missed something fundamental.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 11:11:55 PM by pseudoscops »

Offline donkeypong

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Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2014, 12:07:26 AM »
My preferred solution for delegates:

1) They are trusted and able to maintain the network
2) They publish a budget on who they plan to fund and generally don't do work themselves.
3) They coordinate with other delegates.

If the role of delegates is to manage up to 1% of the spendable budget then we can hire many delegates.   Lets keep it really simple, if you don't know how to run a node ask for funding from a delegate that does run a node.   If the delegate thinks it is worth while and won't cause him to lose his spot then he can support you.

Thus at the end of the day you only have to trust that a delegate can make wise evaluations about the performance of the real workers while maintaining a node.
BM, you could probably post this to a new thread so others can find it.

I agree. This is a very significant posting, but it's buried here in this thread.

Edit: Thanks for moving it to this thread. For what it's worth, I agree with your ideas. There are other things I will be looking for also in delegates, but the criteria on your list are very good.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 12:52:34 AM by donkeypong »

Offline Ander

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Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2014, 12:11:52 AM »
Bytemaster hijacked my thread with something important. :P
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Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2014, 12:40:38 AM »
Bytemaster hijacked my thread with something important. :P
By popular demand and to return your thread to its owner.  :)
 Enjoy.

Offline Riverhead

Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2014, 12:40:58 AM »
If I understand this correctly than this is a scenario you'd like to see:

I run a node at 100% pay but only keep enough of it for a bit of income for myself, expenses to run the node, and the rest I pay out the people that would provide non technical work like Vato and MeTHoDx. This would save them from the chore of having to run a node and it would save me doing a crappy job at what they are good at. We'd agree on a percentage cut of the node, or as things grow a salary.

There isn't any reason such a person couldn't work for multiple nodes. Or, put another way, I could coordinate with say Xeroc and GaltReport to fund MeTHoDx.

Offline GaltReport

Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2014, 12:56:39 AM »
If I understand this correctly than this is a scenario you'd like to see:

I run a node at 100% pay but only keep enough of it for a bit of income for myself, expenses to run the node, and the rest I pay out the people that would provide non technical work like Vato and MeTHoDx. This would save them from the chore of having to run a node and it would save me doing a crappy job at what they are good at. We'd agree on a percentage cut of the node, or as things grow a salary.

There isn't any reason such a person couldn't work for multiple nodes. Or, put another way, I could coordinate with say Xeroc and GaltReport to fund MeTHoDx.

I'm down for that if BM approves.

Offline puppies

Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2014, 01:10:58 AM »
I've been thinking about this.  I have been running a 10% delegate node at a loss since launch, and want to wait to see how the new payment systems pans out in practice.

This time of year is very busy for me professionally, and I haven't had time to read everything on the forums.  I am making a few assumptions and would love confirmation or clarification. 
I assume the new pay system will take over on block 991700 when version 0.4.24 forks.
I believe all delegates will be reset to a 3% pay rate.
I assume that pay rate will still not be able to be raised.

If this is the case my current plan is to place all funds beyond those required to pay for servers (currently about $50 a month) in a separate account that I can use to pay individuals willing to do jobs.  At this point I do not plan on keeping anything beyond what it costs to run the servers, as I do not plan on doing much beyond picking those best able to contribute and funding them.  I do not expect 3% to net me much beyond operating costs, so these will probably be small jobs, but I would be willing to team up with other delegates to fund larger jobs if needed. 

If you have any great ideas that need funding please feel free to PM me.  Alternately if you are not worried about keeping your ideas private feel free to post them.  I am guessing we will shortly have an area of the forum set up for exactly that purpose.

In the long run I would love nothing more than for this to take off to the point where I could quit my day job and do for BitShares what I currently do.  Manage the performance of a team.
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Offline Riverhead

Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2014, 01:15:03 AM »

Dude, you nailed it. Especially the part about a section of the forum where people can not just campaign as delegates but campaign their ideas that require funding from a delegate.

If a delegate continually makes bad funding decisions they'll be out on their ear.

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2014, 01:20:46 AM »
Makes sense. My plan is to keep a 3% delegate and see how things go, use the money to pay for the hardware and for working on the new "official" linux binaries with DSL (see github for the discussion on that)

Eventually I could be merged in with a team of delegates, but for now there seems to be < 110 teams so no market force to consolidate yet. As things consolidate, then the new teams will merge until they get up to 100%.

I like bytemaster's long term plan, it's fluid and allows for market forces (my main concern from the previous). Everyone will take 100% eventually, the question is which teams give you the best value for their 100%. The market will be to optimize value for a fixed cost.
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

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Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2014, 01:24:10 AM »
I am liking this more with every passing second, now that Riverhead, maqifrnswa and puppies have clarified it for me.

So there will be 2 ways how this thing works:

-Somebody is getting paid and he hires people for the technical stuff (if he can not do it him/her self).

-People with technical skills run delegates and distribute funds to projects/people they find worthy/ bringing the most value to the system
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 01:31:36 AM by tonyk2 »

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2014, 01:36:52 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I think this is innovative - but it is also difficult to pull off since it relies on some serious organizers. Those people that are best qualified will require a lot of money in order for it to be worth their time. $2500/month won't be enough money for serious entrepreneurs to do anything yet. At this point, it's basically paying smallish projects and development. We just need equity to increase at a rate greater than is being paid out. That's the hard part, don't know if this new system will pull it off - but it is innovative.
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

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Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2014, 01:42:46 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I think this is innovative - but it is also difficult to pull off since it relies on some serious organizers. Those people that are best qualified will require a lot of money in order for it to be worth their time. $2500/month won't be enough money for serious entrepreneurs to do anything yet. At this point, it's basically paying smallish projects and development. We just need equity to increase at a rate greater than is being paid out. That's the hard part, don't know if this new system will pull it off - but it is innovative.

Yes I foresee several [maybe even 10] delegates to unite to fund a single project/idea, at the early stages. As the market cap grows, we will gradually move to the other choice - one delegate paying for a project employing more than one person.

Offline Method-X

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Re: My preferred solution for delegates
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2014, 01:46:53 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I think this is innovative - but it is also difficult to pull off since it relies on some serious organizers. Those people that are best qualified will require a lot of money in order for it to be worth their time. $2500/month won't be enough money for serious entrepreneurs to do anything yet. At this point, it's basically paying smallish projects and development. We just need equity to increase at a rate greater than is being paid out. That's the hard part, don't know if this new system will pull it off - but it is innovative.

I imagine it will be mostly volunteers for the next year or so. People who are dedicated and passionate.

 

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