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Offline Rune

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Upgrading bitcoin
« on: November 17, 2014, 10:23:11 PM »

Some of you might have seen the giant post I made a couple of days ago, describing how BTS could essentially "attack" and acquire bitcoins' market cap. I since deleted the post because I realized the bitshares community shouldn't have to deal with the potential negative fallout from such an action. The superior idea of using a new, dedicated blockchain to perform the attack was also brought up, which is clearly better because it allows it to be framed as an upgrade (which it is) rather than a attack by a seperate community.

Now I'm back with version 2 of the strategy, having solved the earlier flaws that some bitcoin developers pointed out. The grand plan is to upgrade bitcoin to a dual chain POW/DPOS hybrid with an 18 million absolute hard cap and all the features of the bitshares toolkit. If you found the idea interesting then you can read this reddit post for a breakdown of the new upgrade strategy: http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinUpgrade/comments/2mlkn5/how_and_what/

Currently we're just a tiny amount of people involved in this. No matter who you are, if you find the idea interesting or exciting, then you're very welcome to join us. We do not yet have a developer that would be capable of creating a genesis block with the bitshares toolkit, but before we hire one we need to see what kind of interest there actually is. Luckily the development required for our strategy is only that + creating a future hard fork with a new genesis block in it, so it is not vital that we get a superstar developer. Someone able to understand and proficiently use the bitshares toolkit is enough.

Our greatest accomplishment so far is vitalik telling me "if you bribe existing miners with some quantity of BTC that definitely will work too.". Next step is to create a simple video that explains the reddit post i linked in a more digestible way.

zerosum

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Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2014, 10:32:32 PM »
Try contacting the Rand Paul DPOS coin dev or the aphaBar's team devs.

Both are familiar with the DPOS toolkit, apparently. And not too many are familiar with the toolkit, outside of the I3 team, it seems.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 10:39:08 PM by tonyk2 »

Online fluxer555

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Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2014, 10:34:54 PM »
Our greatest accomplishment so far is vitalik telling me "if you bribe existing miners with some quantity of BTC that definitely will work too."

Source?
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Offline Method-X

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Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2014, 10:36:49 PM »
Using DPOS inflation to essentially force a Bitcoin hard fork is a brilliant idea.

sumantso

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Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2014, 10:40:15 PM »
I prefer a stealth attack where BitBTC poses as friend, starts getting used interchangeably with Bitcoin, and slowly captures part of the marketcap (channeling it into BTS).

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2014, 11:06:07 PM »
An attack on Bitcoin doesn't transfer Bitcoins value to the upgrade, it destroys Bitcoins value so it's a worthless attack for the attacker. It's basic human psychology.

Offline luckybit

Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2014, 11:16:58 PM »
First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.
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Offline hpenvy

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Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2014, 11:47:44 PM »
First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.

We're having a great discussion about working with Bitcoin with a combined web wallet 'Bitcoin wallet that earns interest'.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=11397.0

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Offline arhag

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Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2014, 01:54:14 AM »
Rune, why are you trying to do this? How would this possibly benefit the BTS community in any way?

zerosum

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Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2014, 02:36:44 AM »
Rune, why are you trying to do this? How would this possibly benefit the BTS community in any way?

Rune is Satoshi.... he wants his baby on DPOS  :)

Offline xeroc

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Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2014, 08:27:30 AM »
First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.
As much as I like @Rune's proposal for it's forward thinking, I tend to agree with luckybit here.
Although most people in r/bitcoin are greedy and blindly following the bitcoin tech, we must make sure to honor satoshi's invention instead of attacking it. None of this would have been possible blabla .. bla ..

I'd prefer the strategy to let me figure it out themselves without aggressively attacking the chain .. though theoretical discussions are a +5%!!!
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sumantso

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Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2014, 08:34:02 AM »
I'd prefer the strategy to let me figure it out themselves without aggressively attacking the chain .. though theoretical discussions are a +5%!!!

In the meantime we can get them to start using BitBTC and try to get a piece of the pie.

Offline monsterer

Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2014, 09:31:35 AM »
This idea is madness. How much money do you think the bitcoin miners have invested in their warehouses of liquid-cooled, custom built racks of ASIC mining equipment, which are specifically designed to solve SHA256 hashes?

You seriously expect 51% of the mining power, with all that investment to all simultaneously agree to throw their existing tried and tested business model, equipment and infrastructure away on the promise of some untried, untested idea?
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Offline Rune

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Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2014, 12:24:18 PM »
I'm not having any illusions that this won't cause a torrent of controversy. That's not necessarily a bad thing. The prospect of an "attack" is what will make bitcoiners wake up to the fact that if they want to keep satoshis blockchain and currency alive, it MUST be upgraded. We simply cannot allow it to die. I think the people who are in this for the ideals rather than the profits will eventually come to understand why it is important.

Rune, why are you trying to do this? How would this possibly benefit the BTS community in any way?

It's about upgrading bitcoin and ensuring its long term survival. Coins will be sharedropped on BTS owners to fulfill the social contract, but it's not being done for our sake specifically, it's for the sake of the entire blockchain industry.

First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.

It sounds crazy, but it will work. Worst case scenario bitcoin sees massive volatility and the miner bribes have to be increased. Whatever the price, it will still be worth it in the long run if the result sees bitcoin being put on a sustainable long term trajectory.

This idea is madness. How much money do you think the bitcoin miners have invested in their warehouses of liquid-cooled, custom built racks of ASIC mining equipment, which are specifically designed to solve SHA256 hashes?

You seriously expect 51% of the mining power, with all that investment to all simultaneously agree to throw their existing tried and tested business model, equipment and infrastructure away on the promise of some untried, untested idea?

It's as simple as paying 51% of them more than their current expected return. Using incentive structures that abuse the tragedy of the commons inherent in POW mining can reduce the price even further. Since the incentives are vested and conditional on the upgrade taking effect, they can be freely increased to whatever level is required to convince miners to support it. In the end, whatever the price ends up becoming, it will be worth it because the alternative is bitcoin simply dying a slow death. Also in the long run it will prevent another 7 million BTC created out of wasteful inflation, so there's a lot to pay with.

I prefer a stealth attack where BitBTC poses as friend, starts getting used interchangeably with Bitcoin, and slowly captures part of the marketcap (channeling it into BTS).

I don't think this strategy will work, because bitcoin true believers are good at identifying things that will result in the longterm irrelevance of bitcoin. They consider the bitcoin blockchain and the bitcoin moniker culturally significant, and anything working to undermine that is rejected for reasons that have nothing to do with economics. Upgrading bitcoin will ensure that these important symbols are preserved when the inevitable migration to next generation blockchain technology happens, and will overall make the transition significantly faster.

Offline monsterer

Re: Upgrading bitcoin
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2014, 12:55:23 PM »
It's as simple as paying 51% of them more than their current expected return. Using incentive structures that abuse the tragedy of the commons inherent in POW mining can reduce the price even further.

You can't pay them without 51% of them simultaneously agreeing to accept the payment. That is the key failure mode of this idea.
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