Author Topic: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]  (Read 2236 times)

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Offline bytemaster

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jakub

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Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2015, 12:43:58 am »
BM, you have such brilliant ideas, I really like this MAS concept.

But at the same time your communication strategy is absolutely terrible.
It feels like there is a part of you that wants to sabotage the whole thing.

You could've easily introduced MAS without alienating so many people.
You could've said the same things but in a different way - without depreciating DEX in any way.

Offline roadscape

Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2015, 12:50:01 am »
I have a lot of questions.. but as I see the MAS concept unfold, I get more and more interested. This post begins to dig into the practical issues and it's a great start. It's a natural alignment of incentives, and there's endless possibilities for gamification of mutual aid..

I'll start with the dumbest question: what does MUXER stand for?
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Offline Stan

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Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2015, 02:34:03 am »
BM, you have such brilliant ideas, I really like this MAS concept.

But at the same time your communication strategy is absolutely terrible.
It feels like there is a part of you that wants to sabotage the whole thing.

You could've easily introduced MAS without alienating so many people.
You could've said the same things but in a different way - without depreciating DEX in any way.

It is true that we always seem to cause a forum-fire every time BM tries to share his thoughts.
But at least he is trying.  Plus, I've spent untold hours trying to help explain his latest thinking.
But its like trying to have a conversation with people who are determined to assume the worst. 

Suit yourselves.

We aren't going to get any better at sharing our breakthrough thoughts, so telling us to change isn't going to make any difference.  (I don't try to change my wife anymore either, and She Couldn't Change Me.)

There have been no pivots since the merger.  Just steady problem solving technical progress that takes us light years ahead of where we were at this time last year.  Instead of merely having a DEX on a blockchain, we now have that plus a freaking real time platform that can support all sorts of business models and govern itself. Plus many ways for independent entrepreneurs to plug in and launch their own profitable dreams.

That opportunity is offered to everyone on a silver platter.

And we have guys like Ronny who are taking the DEX forward using skills we don't have.  So it's not abandoned, just handed off to managers with the right skill mix.  And we still have a team polishing the user interface features and ready to implement whatever priorities emerge from Ronny and the community.  BitShares will prosper because it has Cryptonomex on its team doing the trailblazing function, not because we are the whole team.  (If we did try to do it all - or even when we don't, those same folks switch to complaining about centralization... in this same thread.)     ::)

For over a year I've described our vision of BitShares as a "SuperDAC" platform for building businesses and our intent to be a supplier of those businesses and tools for others to build those businesses.  Originally we thought of them as separate DACs, but then we realized the power of having them share the resources of a common blockchain infrastructure.  That's what we have created.  No apologies.

What is so confusing about building the real time Linux of blockchains? 
And then setting out to develop apps for it?

Getting in on the ground floor of a decentralized business platform
and owning some or all of its future businesses is the investment opportunity.
This is not Proctor and Gamble and we are not selling soap.

Our startup business has limited resources and will apply them where we think they will do the most good for our business.  That means other things will be left for others to do. Or not.  And we are counting on this community and our industry partners to make the complementary choices that best suit them. 

Right now, we've recognized that the DEX needs more things to trade that will attract more users and outside funds to generate more liquidity and demand.  So we have our chief trailblazer looking into what has the most potential along those lines.

It does no good to tell a rook it needs to move diagonally on the chessboard.
It does no good to tell an all-star pitcher that he needs work on his batting average.

:)






« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 12:04:47 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Stan

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Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2015, 02:57:19 am »
I have a lot of questions.. but as I see the MAS concept unfold, I get more and more interested. This post begins to dig into the practical issues and it's a great start. It's a natural alignment of incentives, and there's endless possibilities for gamification of mutual aid..

I'll start with the dumbest question: what does MUXER stand for?

MUXER is electrical engineering slang for "multiplexer".
It  vaguely suggests the routing of a set of signals (or resources) onto a single medium or blockchain.
It is just an internal code word chosen because it is easier to say than "null frequency phased array quantum impluser"


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline luckybit

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Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2015, 05:56:55 am »
http://bytemaster.github.io/update/2015/12/31/Mutual-Aid-Society/

What about the effect of compound interest on this? If a person keeps paying in, and paying in, eventually what they pay in can snowball.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_interest

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« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 06:02:16 am by luckybit »
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Offline fuzzy

Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2015, 06:44:20 am »
I like this.  when we really take the time to think about it, bitshares isnt a guild at all.  it is the game itself that all ofher guilds will build themselves into...if done right.  the only big thing would be a step by step guide on how to set something like this up.  it should be easy for anyone to set one up and play without much ramifications (especially with respect to legality)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 06:48:23 am by fuzzy »
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Offline cube

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Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2015, 07:06:45 am »
In all practicality, CNX needs to find ways to continue funding its existence.  BM believes pivoting to MAS will provide that.  If the community needed any features/documentation to be carried out in order to continue development for DEX, they would need to find their own fund and set a plan of execution. Thanks Jakub for initiating a new thread for it.
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Offline svk

Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2015, 08:18:35 am »
While I don't think this MAS will gain much traction (mutual aid soceties went the way of the dodo for a reason), the technical details seem mostly fine.


One thing that bothers me is that once a claim is validated, it does not pay out immediately but needs transfers from multiple individuals. That part really should get automated imo.
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jakub

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Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2015, 09:44:02 am »
It is true that we always seem to cause a forum-fire every time BM tries to share his thoughts.
But at least he is trying.  Plus, I've spent untold hours trying to help explain his latest thinking.
But its like trying to have a conversation with people who are determined to assume the worst. 

This is where you under-promised:
The initial blog post made it sound like you are pivoting and abandoning DEX. Or telling us that DEX is complete so we need to move on.
People here have put their money and thousands of hours on this forum discussing DEX and its potential. CNX actively encouraged this by outlining the advantages of shared order-book, safety, transparency etc. And one blog post erases all of this. BM contrasts the potential of MAS with the potential of DEX. And this is a big mistake to do that.
It does not take a PR genius to be able to predict that this is going to be a tough sell and people are going to rebel against it. Not because the MAS idea is bad. But because the beloved DEX seems to be abandoned.
You should've put all emphasis on DEX being taken care of. Either by CNX itself or by creating an environment where some other company can take over. And this is the area where it even makes sense to over-promise, just to make it easier to swallow.
You are in a position to over-promise here because taking good care of DEX is within your ability.

This is where you over-promised:
As usual, even before MAS was announced, BM mentioned about its potential to increase the value of LTM ten times or something along these lines. The thing is, nobody knows that. This is pure speculation. The concept of MAS should have been presented in a neutral way, without any speculation about its potential. It works much better when people, after reading a description, discover this potential themselves, make up their minds on their own. This way they feel they discovered this, it originates as an internal thought, not external assumption, especially when it's made by people who have over-promised in the past.
You should not make any promises here because MAS becoming huge is not within your control.

Offline Stan

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Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2015, 12:14:01 pm »
It is true that we always seem to cause a forum-fire every time BM tries to share his thoughts.
But at least he is trying.  Plus, I've spent untold hours trying to help explain his latest thinking.
But its like trying to have a conversation with people who are determined to assume the worst. 

This is where you under-promised:
The initial blog post made it sound like you are pivoting and abandoning DEX. Or telling us that DEX is complete so we need to move on.
People here have put their money and thousands of hours on this forum discussing DEX and its potential. CNX actively encouraged this by outlining the advantages of shared order-book, safety, transparency etc. And one blog post erases all of this. BM contrasts the potential of MAS with the potential of DEX. And this is a big mistake to do that.
It does not take a PR genius to be able to predict that this is going to be a tough sell and people are going to rebel against it. Not because the MAS idea is bad. But because the beloved DEX seems to be abandoned.
You should've put all emphasis on DEX being taken care of. Either by CNX itself or by creating an environment where some other company can take over. And this is the area where it even makes sense to over-promise, just to make it easier to swallow.
You are in a position to over-promise here because taking good care of DEX is within your ability.

This is where you over-promised:
As usual, even before MAS was announced, BM mentioned about its potential to increase the value of LTM ten times or something along these lines. The thing is, nobody knows that. This is pure speculation. The concept of MAS should have been presented in a neutral way, without any speculation about its potential. It works much better when people, after reading a description, discover this potential themselves, make up their minds on their own. This way they feel they discovered this, it originates as an internal thought, not external assumption, especially when it's made by people who have over-promised in the past.
You should not make any promises here because MAS becoming huge is not within your control.

I agree we always need to make reassurances (if we were any good at anticipating how we might be misunderstood).

But there is no intent to make any promises here.   Dan was simply stating that he is looking for ten-baggers when he chooses what to do with his time and money.  He decided to investigate the potential of MAS as the best ten-bagger he has identified.

And current threads are full of my attempts to show how pursuing lucrative assets and applications is the best way we know to drive traffic to the DEX. 

A thriving DEX is assumed to underly everything new we consider.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 12:15:36 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

jakub

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Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2015, 12:59:04 pm »
It is true that we always seem to cause a forum-fire every time BM tries to share his thoughts.
But at least he is trying.  Plus, I've spent untold hours trying to help explain his latest thinking.
But its like trying to have a conversation with people who are determined to assume the worst. 

This is where you under-promised:
The initial blog post made it sound like you are pivoting and abandoning DEX. Or telling us that DEX is complete so we need to move on.
People here have put their money and thousands of hours on this forum discussing DEX and its potential. CNX actively encouraged this by outlining the advantages of shared order-book, safety, transparency etc. And one blog post erases all of this. BM contrasts the potential of MAS with the potential of DEX. And this is a big mistake to do that.
It does not take a PR genius to be able to predict that this is going to be a tough sell and people are going to rebel against it. Not because the MAS idea is bad. But because the beloved DEX seems to be abandoned.
You should've put all emphasis on DEX being taken care of. Either by CNX itself or by creating an environment where some other company can take over. And this is the area where it even makes sense to over-promise, just to make it easier to swallow.
You are in a position to over-promise here because taking good care of DEX is within your ability.

This is where you over-promised:
As usual, even before MAS was announced, BM mentioned about its potential to increase the value of LTM ten times or something along these lines. The thing is, nobody knows that. This is pure speculation. The concept of MAS should have been presented in a neutral way, without any speculation about its potential. It works much better when people, after reading a description, discover this potential themselves, make up their minds on their own. This way they feel they discovered this, it originates as an internal thought, not external assumption, especially when it's made by people who have over-promised in the past.
You should not make any promises here because MAS becoming huge is not within your control.

I agree we always need to make reassurances (if we were any good at anticipating how we might be misunderstood).

But there is no intent to make any promises here.   Dan was simply stating that he is looking for ten-baggers when he chooses what to do with his time and money.  He decided to investigate the potential of MAS as the best ten-bagger he has identified.

And current threads are full of my attempts to show how pursuing lucrative assets and applications is the best way we know to drive traffic to the DEX. 

A thriving DEX is assumed to underly everything new we consider.

Relationships between entrepreneurs and their investors are very hard.
(I should know this well as within my own company I play the role of BM and the effects of my words & actions are not much better than his)
So please take this well-intentioned feedback in a humble way and please learn.

Promise (or even over-promise) in areas which you control and about which your investors might feel very sensitive & vulnerable.
Don't promise (or at least under-promise) in areas which are beyond your control.

Offline Akado

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Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2016, 05:24:46 pm »
I'm "stuck" with the idea that the DEX could be more profitable and/or bring in more users with right features, like Bond Markets for example, that could let anyone profit from their BTS that otherwise would just sit around and do nothing, while providing liquidity.

So I would like someone to explain how they see MAS as more useful/profitable. Could you give me examples? Or is it because you're thinking long term? I really would like to know because honestly I'm biased, plus I honestly don't see the potential here. So I would like someone to educate me on this, give me a few examples, etc.

Basically if you're strong in favour of MAS and against the DEX related features or if you prefer MAs over DEX, could you please try to sell me MAS?

I really would like to understand so I can have a better opinion on this as now, since I don't fully understand it, I'm just biased.
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2016, 05:29:58 pm »

So I would like someone to explain how they see MAS as more useful/profitable. I honestly don't see the potential here.

You and me both. MAS would be about #158 on my list of things that ought to get done. The word "profitable" was a major tenet of BitShares when it first started. We were going to show the world how a business could function effectively on the blockchain. But there's nothing profitable about one pet project after another. Does anyone honestly think MAS is going to bring in users? Very few. Essentially, it will be a club for those xisting insiders who want to join. Personally, I'm not interested in joining and I'm not interested in funding it when we still have not achieved our original DAC objectives.

Offline sittingduck

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Re: Mutual Aid Society [BLOG POST]
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2016, 06:13:35 pm »
Take a random sample of 1000 people.  Try to sell them dex vs mas and I bet you will have 10x success with mas. 

Dex is nice, but there are better cex alternatives. 

Prediction markets could be big.