Ethereum - better than Bitshares?

[Giga]

what i understand is investment wise Ether isn't designed for strong price appreciation due to high starting ipo price and huge number of ether (1 Trillion + ether?) , while proto / ags / bitshares offer good potential returns on investment for Investors as a reward for risk taking.

i still like Ether, however i do not view it as a threat or direct competitor to Bitshares.

[Giga]

I'd love to see the lead developers of Bitshares, Ethereum, NXT, eMunie, .. have a public discussion in a dedicated forum thread.

We will be participating in a live panel on Friday (BitShares/Ethereum/Mastercoin) to debate the issues and it should be available for download somewhere.

sounds good look forward to that !

[CLains]

Great! Can't wait!

[AdamBLevine]

I'd love to see the lead developers of Bitshares, Ethereum, NXT, eMunie, .. have a public discussion in a dedicated forum thread.

We will be participating in a live panel on Friday (BitShares/Ethereum/Mastercoin) to debate the issues and it should be available for download somewhere.

Yep!  This will be on Let's Talk Bitcoin! in early February.

[bytemaster]

I'd love to see the lead developers of Bitshares, Ethereum, NXT, eMunie, .. have a public discussion in a dedicated forum thread.

We will be participating in a live panel on Friday (BitShares/Ethereum/Mastercoin) to debate the issues and it should be available for download somewhere.

[CLains]

I'd love to see the lead developers of Bitshares, Ethereum, NXT, eMunie, .. have a public discussion in a dedicated forum thread.

[santaclause102]

Their profit model is that of bitcoin, asset appreciation.

100% of revenue is paid to miners.

A *more* important question for them is will it be more profitable to implement BitShares on top of Ethereum or with its own chain?   As a developer building a new DAC I would have to conclude I could lower expenses and increase revenue and decentralization by building my own chain.   One time development costs are nothing compared to the life time a DAC is designed to operate an the value of that DAC.

I agree with the latter.

100% of revenue is paid to miners.

You are right from a labor theory of value standpoint ;) In the end most people profit form price increase due to demand increase due to (potential) usability.

But I dont get the ROI model. Bitcoin has stepped up to be a currency for day to day transactions and a store of value (right now mostly valued because of its network strength). But ethereum advertises itself with being just a base layer so no services like bitcoin (basic money transfer) so there would be no value if nothing i built upon it. How do they want to avoid that I come along build on it and dont let ether holders profit from it? And how could I let the ether holders profit from it?

bytemaster, are you sure the system doesn't allow to have a separate chain but still using it/building upon it?

[bytemaster]

Their profit model is that of bitcoin, asset appreciation.

100% of revenue is paid to miners.

A *more* important question for them is will it be more profitable to implement BitShares on top of Ethereum or with its own chain?   As a developer building a new DAC I would have to conclude I could lower expenses and increase revenue and decentralization by building my own chain.   One time development costs are nothing compared to the life time a DAC is designed to operate an the value of that DAC.

[santaclause102]

Your math is wrong, the inflation rate will approach 0% as the monetary base approaches infinity.

what is the monetary base in your equation?

What would be Ethereum's business model? How would ether holders profit from other developers building upon it?

Day One: Monetary Base is 2x
Year One: Monetary Base is 2.5x
Year Two: Monetary Base is 3x...

Everyone who contributes funds is diluted 33% in the genesis block, 50% by the end of the first year, 66% in 3 years and over 80% in 10 years.

What I meant was this: Ethereum doesn't provide any service by itself. It is just a base layer. So the question is: How is it assured that ether holders profit if a DAC layers on top of ethereum?

[bytemaster]

Your math is wrong, the inflation rate will approach 0% as the monetary base approaches infinity.

what is the monetary base in your equation?

What would be Ethereum's business model? How would ether holders profit from other developers building upon it?

Day One: Monetary Base is 2x
Year One: Monetary Base is 2.5x
Year Two: Monetary Base is 3x...

Everyone who contributes funds is diluted 33% in the genesis block, 50% by the end of the first year, 66% in 3 years and over 80% in 10 years.

[santaclause102]

Your math is wrong, the inflation rate will approach 0% as the monetary base approaches infinity.

what is the monetary base in your equation?

What would be Ethereum's business model? How would ether holders profit from other developers building upon it?

[bytemaster]

I looked it up in the whitepaper.  I am not sure if this is the most recent iteration, I complained about the founders being separated out from other before-launch developers and I believe they've lumped them both together

The issuance model will be as follows:

Ether will be sold in a Mastercoin-style fundraiser at the price of 1 ether for 0.0001 BTC. Suppose that X ether gets collected in this way.
0.25X ether will be given to the founders.
0.25X ether will be given to the Ethereum organization as a reserve pool to pay expenses in ETH such as ETH salaries or bounties for those developers who want part or all of their compensation to be in this form
0.5X ether will be mined per year forever after that point (ie. permanent linear inflation)[/quote]

You can read more at the whitepaper http://vitalik.ca/ethereum.html, look for Issuance

But basically this means that every year, 50% will be added to the money supply.  Forever.   That is distinctly different and noticably less "profitable" for early adopters choosing where to invest than flatly deflationary concepts like mastercoin or bitshares.  Once the  supply is issued, that's it.  The number can shrink but it can never grow.     With Ethereum they're anticipating so much growth that even with an exponentially growing (50% compounding annually is exponential, right?) money supply the demand will far outpace supply.   

There's no right answer here, and I for one am glad that people are trying out different approaches because that's how we're going to find the answer.  No matter who wins, all these concepts and companies are being developed in public and building open source ecosystems.  That's nothing but a win, so I say invest in all of them.

Your math is wrong, the inflation rate will approach 0% as the monetary base approaches infinity.

[AdamBLevine]

I looked it up in the whitepaper.  I am not sure if this is the most recent iteration, I complained about the founders being separated out from other before-launch developers and I believe they've lumped them both together

The issuance model will be as follows:

Ether will be sold in a Mastercoin-style fundraiser at the price of 1 ether for 0.0001 BTC. Suppose that X ether gets collected in this way.
0.25X ether will be given to the founders.
0.25X ether will be given to the Ethereum organization as a reserve pool to pay expenses in ETH such as ETH salaries or bounties for those developers who want part or all of their compensation to be in this form
0.5X ether will be mined per year forever after that point (ie. permanent linear inflation)[/quote]

You can read more at the whitepaper http://vitalik.ca/ethereum.html, look for Issuance

But basically this means that every year, 50% will be added to the money supply.  Forever.   That is distinctly different and noticably less "profitable" for early adopters choosing where to invest than flatly deflationary concepts like mastercoin or bitshares.  Once the  supply is issued, that's it.  The number can shrink but it can never grow.     With Ethereum they're anticipating so much growth that even with an exponentially growing (50% compounding annually is exponential, right?) money supply the demand will far outpace supply.   

There's no right answer here, and I for one am glad that people are trying out different approaches because that's how we're going to find the answer.  No matter who wins, all these concepts and companies are being developed in public and building open source ecosystems.  That's nothing but a win, so I say invest in all of them.

[santaclause102]

Adam, what did you mean by that sentence

One thing to note is that Ether is a relatively medium-term opportunity compared to other metacoin layers since the
money supply goes up forever at a relatively fast rate.   Ether is not as inherently deflationary as Bitcoin for example.

Medium term compared to short or long term? ;)
Bitcoin and more so Ether are inflationary until mining is (almost) done...

supply goes up forever at a relatively fast rate

???

[AdamBLevine]

I'm not intimately familiar with the details of the fundraiser, I think they're still under discussion.   I know it will be some sort of Mastercoin/Kickstarter style "give us development money we give you Ether" model.

I believe the intent is to announce full details at the Miami conference, end of the month.

One thing to note is that Ether is a relatively medium-term opportunity compared to other metacoin layers since the money supply goes up forever at a relatively fast rate.   Ether is not as inherently deflationary as Bitcoin for example.